3 ms·

I suspect you’re being downvoted because it isn’t a very well formulated negative. The problem is indeed scale, but there not being a battery setup in the world

I suspect you’re being downvoted because it isn’t a very well formulated negative. The problem is indeed scale, but there not being a battery setup in the world that could singlehandedly fix the issue isn’t the problem. You can have a lot of smaller battery setups if the batteries are cost efficient enough and you have a suitably flexible grid. The actual issues are the cost efficiency of batteries, the amount of batteries that can be produced in total, and the flexibility of the power grid. Flexibility of the power grid is a known solvable problem, although how much it will cost to improve our infrastructure there is an important question. The point you were responding to was presumably arguing that $100kw/h batteries exist, and that that’s cost efficient enough. The questions are A) Is it true batteries at that cost exist, B) Is that actually cost efficient enough, and C) Can we produce enough of them to deal with the scale of batteries needed. Your post didn’t really argue against any of those points, just stated vacuously that current setups aren’t sufficient. Obviously current setups aren’t sufficient, the question is if we are approaching the cost point where they could be.

N1H1L 5y ago
Used car batteries are much, much cheaper. So as more BEVs come on road, that's obviously one way forward. Also $100/kWh is today. However, given how rapidly costs have declined over the past three decades, nothing suggests that this is the final number. Finally, these are just Li-ion prices. Na-ion and Fe-ion are also very close to deployment now. Both of them cannot match the energy density of Li-ion, but that's fine. Grid storage depends on cost, not energy density anyway
eldaisfish 5y ago
Storage batteries are going to fill gaps in generation swings, not power gigawatt scale grids for more than a few minutes. This is the crux of my point and i stated it as such. A lot of smaller batteries is effectively equivalent to a single larger battery and that does not get around the problem from above - they simply cannot store enough energy for more than short periods. A handful of large hydro reservoirs store more potential energy than all chemical batteries in the world combined. Meanwhile, extreme weather events are getting more common. Texas - for example - had a nearly 10,000 MW shortfall between their forecast and the actual, served demand. Is a battery every going to supply capacities like that for hours on end? No. During that cold snap, some wind turbines froze, some didn't see enough wind and much of the solar wasn't generating at full tilt. What then? Do we shrug our shoulders and say "no heat, too bad"? Chemical storage batteries cannot power large grids for extended periods and that is the fundamental problem being ignored, not their cost. The problem with HN is that people do not think outside their silicon valley and techbro bubble. Another comment here suggested that domestic loads can be served with a battery. Sure, if you live in California and don't need much heat. This is the problem - when someone points out that what is proposed is not viable everywhere and that a mix of solutions is needed, it gets downvoted because it doesn't follow the "renewable energy is the be all and end all" argument.
- N1H1L 5y ago
  Define short periods. Also gas lines froze more than turbines did BTW at Texas, just FYI. Very few conventional sources can also backstop 10GW of demand mismatch. Which is why having a national grid is so much better, power from Arizona can be used to top up shortfalls in Texas and vice versa. > Chemical storage batteries cannot power large grids for extended periods and that is the fundamental problem being ignored, not their cost. You are being downvoted because this is just an opinion, not backed by any facts on the ground. Most solar installs today itself come with 4 hours of battery backup. Also, several posters and I have given cost figures on how much multi-day battery backups would cost even at current prices. So your insistence that batteries only last for a few minutes is getting downvoted, and calling people techbros isn't helping either.

N1H1L 5y ago

Used car batteries are much, much cheaper. So as more BEVs come on road, that's obviously one way forward. Also $100/kWh is today. However, given how rapidly costs have declined over the past three decades, nothing suggests that this is the final number. Finally, these are just Li-ion prices. Na-ion and Fe-ion are also very close to deployment now. Both of them cannot match the energy density of Li-ion, but that's fine. Grid storage depends on cost, not energy density anyway

eldaisfish 5y ago

Storage batteries are going to fill gaps in generation swings, not power gigawatt scale grids for more than a few minutes. This is the crux of my point and i stated it as such. A lot of smaller batteries is effectively equivalent to a single larger battery and that does not get around the problem from above - they simply cannot store enough energy for more than short periods. A handful of large hydro reservoirs store more potential energy than all chemical batteries in the world combined. Meanwhile, extreme weather events are getting more common. Texas - for example - had a nearly 10,000 MW shortfall between their forecast and the actual, served demand. Is a battery every going to supply capacities like that for hours on end? No. During that cold snap, some wind turbines froze, some didn't see enough wind and much of the solar wasn't generating at full tilt. What then? Do we shrug our shoulders and say "no heat, too bad"? Chemical storage batteries cannot power large grids for extended periods and that is the fundamental problem being ignored, not their cost. The problem with HN is that people do not think outside their silicon valley and techbro bubble. Another comment here suggested that domestic loads can be served with a battery. Sure, if you live in California and don't need much heat. This is the problem - when someone points out that what is proposed is not viable everywhere and that a mix of solutions is needed, it gets downvoted because it doesn't follow the "renewable energy is the be all and end all" argument.

N1H1L 5y ago
Define short periods. Also gas lines froze more than turbines did BTW at Texas, just FYI. Very few conventional sources can also backstop 10GW of demand mismatch. Which is why having a national grid is so much better, power from Arizona can be used to top up shortfalls in Texas and vice versa. > Chemical storage batteries cannot power large grids for extended periods and that is the fundamental problem being ignored, not their cost. You are being downvoted because this is just an opinion, not backed by any facts on the ground. Most solar installs today itself come with 4 hours of battery backup. Also, several posters and I have given cost figures on how much multi-day battery backups would cost even at current prices. So your insistence that batteries only last for a few minutes is getting downvoted, and calling people techbros isn't helping either.