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Doesn’t help when you don’t have the foot in the door because your family is not traditionally professional. I had to ask one of my old graduate project partne

Doesn’t help when you don’t have the foot in the door because your family is not traditionally professional. I had to ask one of my old graduate project partners for a referral to my current (and first, at 27) tech job and I still feel dirty and guilty that I got it so easily and managed to escape the trap of being extremely qualified while making min wage in a dusty shithole of a warehouse. “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know” was a phrase of derision growing up, but it’s how the world works now.

GavinMcG 5y ago
It's how the world has always worked, which is why it's a phrase in the first place.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  It’s fucked up is what it is. Right now my coworkers like me, my manager gave me a glowing review, the company is willing to buy me certs and I have been assigned to the subteam responsible for our core functionality. 8 months ago I was self-harming and ready to off myself because of endlessly firing applications into the void and reaching the end of my finances. I can clearly perform under the stress of work, school, achievement, things breaking but the way the labour market is structured almost broke me which has to tell you something.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    As parent was telling you, that's always been America. Except historically, most jobs have been less safe. You get crap jobs in your teens to have work history. You go to college to get a degree. You make friends at college, network, and maybe get an internship. You leverage all of the previous to get your first job. You leverage your first job and network to get your second job. It's not easy. But it is how the world works. Why do you think so many people in white collar jobs have imposter syndrome?
  - danans 5y ago
    > 8 months ago I was self-harming and ready to off myself because of endlessly firing applications into the void and reaching the end of my finances I am sorry you experienced this. Many of us have experienced similar things in our careers. When I did, I had my brother's couch I could crash on while I figured things out, and to be honest, parents who could help me with rent when my post dotcom-bust job paid peanuts. To the extent that your difficulties were exacerbated by an insufficient social safety net is perhaps the greatest indictment of our society. Incentive structures matter, and structures that put people at the brink between achievement and self harm do a lot of damage to our human capital. Not everyone will be pushed to the point of self-harm, but the proximity between destitution and achievement is too close, especially for those without family and community safety nets.
pwned1 5y ago
Every single job I've had in my adult life (I'm 42 years old now) was because I knew someone. It pays to know people and make friends/connections. I got started with an unpaid internship in high school (every school should require that) and life grew out of that. [edit] And my family was anything but "traditionally professional." I had no connections whatsoever through my family.
- jkestner 5y ago
  Pretty much the same here. Many of those connections were from school, going all the way back to elementary. So as a parent now, I feel like part of my job, for better or worse, is to nurture their friendships and maintain them with playdates once they aren’t in the same school.
  - gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
    I can’t say I blame you, but it really leads to a society stratified on uncontrollable factors and puts a bullet in the idea of meritocracy. You can’t control who your parents are or the culture you grew up in, but these have no impact on your job performance unless you live in a highly nepotistic society. Maybe an “affirmative action” type program for the socially disadvantaged is necessary, but I can’t see that gaining much support when addressing the more glaring disparities (racial, gender) is controversial enough.
    - themaninthedark 5y ago
      I have the same issues as you as well and no, you can't control who your parents are and the culture you grow up in. But you can control who your friends are. And you can choose to surround yourself with motivated people. >puts a bullet in the idea of meritocracy. I don't feel the same way, as this sits at the boundary of the workplace. My understanding of meritocracy is that, reward is based on performance inside the company. But until you have hired and had someone working for some time, you have no way of evaluating them. We try to mitigate hiring bad employees with things like resumes, interviews and skill tests but those are not perfect. I, for example, suck at writing a resume. How many people have you seen on this site rage about "leet code tests"? So, another "tool" companies use are personal connections. John, a great worker whom I trust, refers Frank. I still have to interview him but it give me another data point. As a society, we have drifted away from the local community organizations (i.e. churches) that allowed people to build up good connections. We have tried to replace them, things like Linkedin but I am not sure how good of a job they do. Anything done on the internet gives me more of an ethereal feeling as opposed to the more permanent feeling of face to face personal connections.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know” was a phrase of derision growing up, but it’s how the world works now. It was always a phrase of derision for the naivete of those who think it has ever been different, because it has always been how the world works. You just didn't understand it until it bit you, and then you mistook it for some recent change, even though you apparently grew up with people telling you how it is.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  True, I always interpreted it as “incompetent people will sometimes be picked over you by virtue of their connections” but the reality is much, much worse IMO: “from a young age, optimize your social network for the career you want, else play the application lottery”
pastage 5y ago
Honestly being on the other end hiring people without referals is very draining, but my best hires have been without referals.
sureglymop 5y ago
See the thing is, there is no such thing as meritocracy. What I don't understand is why people choose the fantasy of "working their way up" instead of putting some of those efforts into political activism and engagement. That's what's needed to actually tackle the systematic problems at hand. We need more political education, especially among younger people just entering the job market. Period.
ativzzz 5y ago
YMMV. I've gotten all my jobs by mass applying, going to career fairs (to be fair this was through my university), having an updated LinkedIn, etc. None were by referral.
lelanthran 5y ago
> “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know” Close. It's not who you know, it's who knows you.

GavinMcG 5y ago

It's how the world has always worked, which is why it's a phrase in the first place.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
It’s fucked up is what it is. Right now my coworkers like me, my manager gave me a glowing review, the company is willing to buy me certs and I have been assigned to the subteam responsible for our core functionality. 8 months ago I was self-harming and ready to off myself because of endlessly firing applications into the void and reaching the end of my finances. I can clearly perform under the stress of work, school, achievement, things breaking but the way the labour market is structured almost broke me which has to tell you something.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  As parent was telling you, that's always been America. Except historically, most jobs have been less safe. You get crap jobs in your teens to have work history. You go to college to get a degree. You make friends at college, network, and maybe get an internship. You leverage all of the previous to get your first job. You leverage your first job and network to get your second job. It's not easy. But it is how the world works. Why do you think so many people in white collar jobs have imposter syndrome?
- danans 5y ago
  > 8 months ago I was self-harming and ready to off myself because of endlessly firing applications into the void and reaching the end of my finances I am sorry you experienced this. Many of us have experienced similar things in our careers. When I did, I had my brother's couch I could crash on while I figured things out, and to be honest, parents who could help me with rent when my post dotcom-bust job paid peanuts. To the extent that your difficulties were exacerbated by an insufficient social safety net is perhaps the greatest indictment of our society. Incentive structures matter, and structures that put people at the brink between achievement and self harm do a lot of damage to our human capital. Not everyone will be pushed to the point of self-harm, but the proximity between destitution and achievement is too close, especially for those without family and community safety nets.

pwned1 5y ago

Every single job I've had in my adult life (I'm 42 years old now) was because I knew someone. It pays to know people and make friends/connections. I got started with an unpaid internship in high school (every school should require that) and life grew out of that. [edit] And my family was anything but "traditionally professional." I had no connections whatsoever through my family.

jkestner 5y ago
Pretty much the same here. Many of those connections were from school, going all the way back to elementary. So as a parent now, I feel like part of my job, for better or worse, is to nurture their friendships and maintain them with playdates once they aren’t in the same school.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  I can’t say I blame you, but it really leads to a society stratified on uncontrollable factors and puts a bullet in the idea of meritocracy. You can’t control who your parents are or the culture you grew up in, but these have no impact on your job performance unless you live in a highly nepotistic society. Maybe an “affirmative action” type program for the socially disadvantaged is necessary, but I can’t see that gaining much support when addressing the more glaring disparities (racial, gender) is controversial enough.
  - themaninthedark 5y ago
    I have the same issues as you as well and no, you can't control who your parents are and the culture you grow up in. But you can control who your friends are. And you can choose to surround yourself with motivated people. >puts a bullet in the idea of meritocracy. I don't feel the same way, as this sits at the boundary of the workplace. My understanding of meritocracy is that, reward is based on performance inside the company. But until you have hired and had someone working for some time, you have no way of evaluating them. We try to mitigate hiring bad employees with things like resumes, interviews and skill tests but those are not perfect. I, for example, suck at writing a resume. How many people have you seen on this site rage about "leet code tests"? So, another "tool" companies use are personal connections. John, a great worker whom I trust, refers Frank. I still have to interview him but it give me another data point. As a society, we have drifted away from the local community organizations (i.e. churches) that allowed people to build up good connections. We have tried to replace them, things like Linkedin but I am not sure how good of a job they do. Anything done on the internet gives me more of an ethereal feeling as opposed to the more permanent feeling of face to face personal connections.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know” was a phrase of derision growing up, but it’s how the world works now. It was always a phrase of derision for the naivete of those who think it has ever been different, because it has always been how the world works. You just didn't understand it until it bit you, and then you mistook it for some recent change, even though you apparently grew up with people telling you how it is.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
True, I always interpreted it as “incompetent people will sometimes be picked over you by virtue of their connections” but the reality is much, much worse IMO: “from a young age, optimize your social network for the career you want, else play the application lottery”

pastage 5y ago

Honestly being on the other end hiring people without referals is very draining, but my best hires have been without referals.

sureglymop 5y ago

See the thing is, there is no such thing as meritocracy. What I don't understand is why people choose the fantasy of "working their way up" instead of putting some of those efforts into political activism and engagement. That's what's needed to actually tackle the systematic problems at hand. We need more political education, especially among younger people just entering the job market. Period.

ativzzz 5y ago

YMMV. I've gotten all my jobs by mass applying, going to career fairs (to be fair this was through my university), having an updated LinkedIn, etc. None were by referral.

lelanthran 5y ago

> “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know” Close. It's not who you know, it's who knows you.