5 ms·

In Spain there's a very similar immigration catch-22. You need to be registered as a resident (and hence have a stable address) to get an identity card, but goo

In Spain there's a very similar immigration catch-22. You need to be registered as a resident (and hence have a stable address) to get an identity card, but good luck doing pretty much anything (including opening a bank account or renting a flat, which almost always requires a bank account) without the identity card. It's possible to open a bank account as a non-resident to break the loop, but this requires a certificate of non-residence (!) which takes several weeks to get. Everyone I know who came to work here from abroad just either went to a "friendly" bank branch where they turn a blind eye and open an account for them without the certificate of non-residence, or "cheated" the system by registering as a resident at the address of some coworker, boss, acquaintance, etc. (without really living there, of course). The latter is so widespread that many websites for immigrants describe it as "the" way to do things, they don't even mention the "orthodox" way, which makes sense because it's just not practical. It's ridiculous.

speeder 5y ago
I am from Brazil, living in Brazil, have accounts in Brazil, and so on. And got stuck for a while in a similar loop when I decided to get married. The marriage office wanted me to prove my residence, and it had to be MY residence, not partner, not parents, it had to be mine. Meanwhile the places I attempted then to rent to fix the previous issue, wanted proof I had a high enough income to rent them, but wouldn't accept my future wife contribution to it properly. The deadlock was broken only when one day the broker called me, saying some dude was offering his apartment for a really cheap rent because it was an emergency for him. (his mom got cancer and he decided to live with her and use the rent money to help pay her treatment) I accepted, and had to live in the apartment alone for some 2 months before I could go register my marriage. If it wasn't for my landowner misfortune I wouldn't been able to get married. Then right after got stuck in another loop: I was candidate for council elections once, the party lawyer promised to take care of everything for me, but he didn't, despite the fact I spent 0 money and got 0 donations, government decided I was potentially corrupt and took away my voting rights (and in Brazil this means you basically become a non-citizen, you can't get a passport, certain IDs, participate in competitions and so on). I found that out AFTER I married and took my new wife to the voting office to change her name in the registry. So I went to see how to get my citizen rights back, and found out a need a lawyer, it is mandatory, you can't just represent yourself to send the missing documents, you need a lawyer. So I need money, so I need a job (I have a company but not enough money for lawyer, wnated extra money). Then I found out to get a job legally, you need to have the voting rights. I am breaking now this deadlock by getting hired by a foreign company instead, then I will use the money I get working from the foreign company to pay the lawyer. But it made me wonder, I am fortunate, what about people that don't work with stuff that allow them to get a remote job with a foreign company? Will them be forever non-citizens?
InitialLastName 5y ago
> "cheated" the system by registering as a resident at the address of some coworker, boss, acquaintance, etc. (without really living there, of course). This could be a feature of the system, not a bug. In order to make it work you need the implicit endorsement of the person whose address you are using; presumably there could be repercussions for that person if you turned out to be problematic, which would apply a "character test" of sorts to the residency system.
- Al-Khwarizmi 5y ago
  Yeah, I have thought about that, and I also think it may be intentional, for the reasons you mention. But it's quite ugly that in order to implement that "endorsement system", they push you to lie, because both the letter of the law and the forms that both the immigrant and the "helper" person sign are quite unambiguous: you are declaring that the person physically lives in that address, which is not true. If they want an endorsement system, they could explicitly create one.

speeder 5y ago

I am from Brazil, living in Brazil, have accounts in Brazil, and so on. And got stuck for a while in a similar loop when I decided to get married. The marriage office wanted me to prove my residence, and it had to be MY residence, not partner, not parents, it had to be mine. Meanwhile the places I attempted then to rent to fix the previous issue, wanted proof I had a high enough income to rent them, but wouldn't accept my future wife contribution to it properly. The deadlock was broken only when one day the broker called me, saying some dude was offering his apartment for a really cheap rent because it was an emergency for him. (his mom got cancer and he decided to live with her and use the rent money to help pay her treatment) I accepted, and had to live in the apartment alone for some 2 months before I could go register my marriage. If it wasn't for my landowner misfortune I wouldn't been able to get married. Then right after got stuck in another loop: I was candidate for council elections once, the party lawyer promised to take care of everything for me, but he didn't, despite the fact I spent 0 money and got 0 donations, government decided I was potentially corrupt and took away my voting rights (and in Brazil this means you basically become a non-citizen, you can't get a passport, certain IDs, participate in competitions and so on). I found that out AFTER I married and took my new wife to the voting office to change her name in the registry. So I went to see how to get my citizen rights back, and found out a need a lawyer, it is mandatory, you can't just represent yourself to send the missing documents, you need a lawyer. So I need money, so I need a job (I have a company but not enough money for lawyer, wnated extra money). Then I found out to get a job legally, you need to have the voting rights. I am breaking now this deadlock by getting hired by a foreign company instead, then I will use the money I get working from the foreign company to pay the lawyer. But it made me wonder, I am fortunate, what about people that don't work with stuff that allow them to get a remote job with a foreign company? Will them be forever non-citizens?

InitialLastName 5y ago

> "cheated" the system by registering as a resident at the address of some coworker, boss, acquaintance, etc. (without really living there, of course). This could be a feature of the system, not a bug. In order to make it work you need the implicit endorsement of the person whose address you are using; presumably there could be repercussions for that person if you turned out to be problematic, which would apply a "character test" of sorts to the residency system.

Al-Khwarizmi 5y ago
Yeah, I have thought about that, and I also think it may be intentional, for the reasons you mention. But it's quite ugly that in order to implement that "endorsement system", they push you to lie, because both the letter of the law and the forms that both the immigrant and the "helper" person sign are quite unambiguous: you are declaring that the person physically lives in that address, which is not true. If they want an endorsement system, they could explicitly create one.