5 ms·

Why America keeps building corrupt client states

23 points by amai 5y ago

hhsbz 5y ago
B-but the Afghani women
uCantCauseUCant 5y ago
Ah empires primary tool is its army. And a army can be ordered around comfortable, without any resistance but those of supply physics. Is it really that miraculous, that politicians and secret services expect the same behaviour and control interfaces from the puppets they install? They go for what they know and what they know results into always the same outcome. If they do not obey there masters, they crackt he financial whip. Imagine, if the afghans voted for swiss style direct-democracy, with every Kanton a small country. No control interface, but - oh sweet irony, a government model proofen to work in a mountainous region, famous for its mercenaries throughout Europe. PS: Swiss had the last county to ratify womans voting rights in the 1990s, what is it with mountains that makes some men go macho.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerl...
- donpott 5y ago
  > what is it with mountains that makes some men go macho.. I remember reading a hypothesis on this phenomenon in Steven Pinker's "The better angels of our nature". If memory serves, it was because mountain societies, like that of the appalachians, tended to be naturally more honor-based. So keeping one's family's reputation was very important. This resulted in more conservative societies. I'm definitely not making justice to the argument, but I found it interesting. Can recommend the book for a delve on this.
Bellamy 5y ago
> Corruption is usually defined as the abuse of public office for private gain. Who do you think when you read this definition?
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  I think of the politician I voted against in the last election, but not the one I voted for.
inglor_cz 5y ago
America runs on money and thus tries to solve problems with money. The USSR ran on propaganda and thus tried to solve problems with propaganda. Taliban runs on Islam and thus will try to solve problems with Islam. Mongol Empire ran on quick cavalry and cavalry was their way of solving problems too... And it applies domestically as well. I would argue that, e.g. American education system is one huge corrupt client state and you can't even withdraw from that one and leave it to random mujahideen to run.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  > America runs on money and thus tries to solve problems with money. Thought experiment: What if you just accepted this and went all-in on it, with a dash of MMT and tech, as follows... Give every Afghan a smartphone. Lock it way down. Provide a social networking platform that you can monitor. Include a "Fed.ly" banking app. You can control account balances. Also build stores that accept Fedbucks, to ensure they have value. Basically, Fedbucks would be backed by food, and stuff from China. Next, require some time consuming activity of Afghans, which is not too obnoxious, but which can't be faked. It needs to produce trustworthy proof-of-work. For example, it could be like Pokemon Go, with GPS trajectories being proof of work. Or CAPTCHAs. Or taking photographs or videos of different places. Or any combination of these activities. Actually, if you do the GPS waypoint thing, you could have them carry passengers while they're at it. (You could also imagine using Jira tickets for this, but the interface is a little too clunky.) Then, on receipt of proof-of-work, deposit money into the accounts. People will be too busy with these activities to fight you. That activity -- which provides them with food and flip-flops -- will be much easier than fighting. And it will also be easier than whatever they had done before to earn a living. So they will do it. And if ever you start to see resistance, just increase the wages. Eventually people will comply. In a way, this was the model behind the Afghan Army. It was UBI in exchange for bullshit. But it kept those men out of trouble, so long as the US was paying. My proposal is that this model be rolled out, indefinitely, across the entire country, and made attractive enough that even members of the Taliban will do it. If you insist that this system actually produce economic output, you could organize activities in support of mining or other sectors. The key is that it has to be much more profitable for an individual to play along, than either to grow poppies, or to fight back. If you hype it properly, you might even be able to fund it with Softbank money.
amai 5y ago
But not every client state turned out to be so corrupt that it collapsed immediately. Japan and Western Germany after the second world war for example did quite well despite being occupied by the US. Other examples are South Korea and Taiwan. What did they do different at that time? It seems the US somehow lost the know-how on how to create stable client states after Vietnam.
- distances 5y ago
  I'm no historian, but both Germany and Japan were industrialized, highly educated, stable societies with strict hierarchies and a culture of following orders. I don't think Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan can reasonably be compared.
  - MichaelZuo 5y ago
    Also both countries had at least one very big reason to not be corrupt sitting close by.
Proven 5y ago
And which state is not corrupt? It's easy to solve this problem: use real money and the ability to destroy by waging wars disappears. The UK and EU are also corrupt client states - or kingdoms or unions, as the case may be - whose elites benefit from that corruption. That's why it continues to go on.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
jhanschoo 5y ago
The article's discussion of corruption reminds me of a podcast about corruption that distinguishes between three kinds https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-how-corruption-works-china https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-how-corruption-w...
haspoken 5y ago
https://archive.is/awixJ https://archive.is/awixJ

23 points by amai 5y ago

B-but the Afghani women

Ah empires primary tool is its army. And a army can be ordered around comfortable, without any resistance but those of supply physics. Is it really that miraculous, that politicians and secret services expect the same behaviour and control interfaces from the puppets they install? They go for what they know and what they know results into always the same outcome. If they do not obey there masters, they crackt he financial whip. Imagine, if the afghans voted for swiss style direct-democracy, with every Kanton a small country. No control interface, but - oh sweet irony, a government model proofen to work in a mountainous region, famous for its mercenaries throughout Europe. PS: Swiss had the last county to ratify womans voting rights in the 1990s, what is it with mountains that makes some men go macho.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerl...

donpott 5y ago
> what is it with mountains that makes some men go macho.. I remember reading a hypothesis on this phenomenon in Steven Pinker's "The better angels of our nature". If memory serves, it was because mountain societies, like that of the appalachians, tended to be naturally more honor-based. So keeping one's family's reputation was very important. This resulted in more conservative societies. I'm definitely not making justice to the argument, but I found it interesting. Can recommend the book for a delve on this.

Bellamy 5y ago

> Corruption is usually defined as the abuse of public office for private gain. Who do you think when you read this definition?

AussieWog93 5y ago
I think of the politician I voted against in the last election, but not the one I voted for.

inglor_cz 5y ago

America runs on money and thus tries to solve problems with money. The USSR ran on propaganda and thus tried to solve problems with propaganda. Taliban runs on Islam and thus will try to solve problems with Islam. Mongol Empire ran on quick cavalry and cavalry was their way of solving problems too... And it applies domestically as well. I would argue that, e.g. American education system is one huge corrupt client state and you can't even withdraw from that one and leave it to random mujahideen to run.

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
> America runs on money and thus tries to solve problems with money. Thought experiment: What if you just accepted this and went all-in on it, with a dash of MMT and tech, as follows... Give every Afghan a smartphone. Lock it way down. Provide a social networking platform that you can monitor. Include a "Fed.ly" banking app. You can control account balances. Also build stores that accept Fedbucks, to ensure they have value. Basically, Fedbucks would be backed by food, and stuff from China. Next, require some time consuming activity of Afghans, which is not too obnoxious, but which can't be faked. It needs to produce trustworthy proof-of-work. For example, it could be like Pokemon Go, with GPS trajectories being proof of work. Or CAPTCHAs. Or taking photographs or videos of different places. Or any combination of these activities. Actually, if you do the GPS waypoint thing, you could have them carry passengers while they're at it. (You could also imagine using Jira tickets for this, but the interface is a little too clunky.) Then, on receipt of proof-of-work, deposit money into the accounts. People will be too busy with these activities to fight you. That activity -- which provides them with food and flip-flops -- will be much easier than fighting. And it will also be easier than whatever they had done before to earn a living. So they will do it. And if ever you start to see resistance, just increase the wages. Eventually people will comply. In a way, this was the model behind the Afghan Army. It was UBI in exchange for bullshit. But it kept those men out of trouble, so long as the US was paying. My proposal is that this model be rolled out, indefinitely, across the entire country, and made attractive enough that even members of the Taliban will do it. If you insist that this system actually produce economic output, you could organize activities in support of mining or other sectors. The key is that it has to be much more profitable for an individual to play along, than either to grow poppies, or to fight back. If you hype it properly, you might even be able to fund it with Softbank money.

amai 5y ago

But not every client state turned out to be so corrupt that it collapsed immediately. Japan and Western Germany after the second world war for example did quite well despite being occupied by the US. Other examples are South Korea and Taiwan. What did they do different at that time? It seems the US somehow lost the know-how on how to create stable client states after Vietnam.

distances 5y ago
I'm no historian, but both Germany and Japan were industrialized, highly educated, stable societies with strict hierarchies and a culture of following orders. I don't think Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan can reasonably be compared.
- MichaelZuo 5y ago
  Also both countries had at least one very big reason to not be corrupt sitting close by.

Proven 5y ago

And which state is not corrupt? It's easy to solve this problem: use real money and the ability to destroy by waging wars disappears. The UK and EU are also corrupt client states - or kingdoms or unions, as the case may be - whose elites benefit from that corruption. That's why it continues to go on.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

jhanschoo 5y ago

The article's discussion of corruption reminds me of a podcast about corruption that distinguishes between three kinds https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-how-corruption-works-china https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-how-corruption-w...

haspoken 5y ago

https://archive.is/awixJ https://archive.is/awixJ