5 ms·

I mean, people think what they're going to think. But the number of arm-chair logistics experts who have been telling us endlessly how easy this is always retre

by _jal 5y ago

I mean, people think what they're going to think. But the number of arm-chair logistics experts who have been telling us endlessly how easy this is always retreat to hand-wavey vagueness about how they aren't the experts, but clearly somebody could have done better. I understand that from folks who want the political attack, or from folks who are personally invested in either the US military or intelligence. I don't understand it from intelligent folks who can spend a minute or two thinking through the situation.

lazyasciiart 5y ago
I don't understand how you can not list six ways it could have been done better. The US runs it's own visa program. There is nobody except the US to blame for the existence of a single Afghan who worked with them and did not have a permanent US visa for their family before the deadline to leave. And if internal American incompetence prevented that, then every one of them should have had an emergency visa that allowed them to fly out on American planes to America and be processed there.
- _jal 5y ago
  > then every one of them should have had an emergency visa that allowed them to fly out on American planes to America and be processed there This is fantasy. Even if you could get divided government on board, how are you going to convince the Taliban to let them out? If you think it should have been done in "secret" beforehand, please explain how you get literally thousands of people, many in visible positions, out without being noticed. This is just one example of a demand for something that could not happen. They've evac'ed over 100K people so far. It is the largest such operation in history, and it is actually going relatively well. It is amusing, but not surprising, to see all the 'savvy' media consumers here get rolled.
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    >how are you going to convince the Taliban to let them out Easy. Don't let the country fall into the hands of the Taliban before getting people out. That would prevent negotiations with some of the worst people in the world.
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    You don't need the 'divided government' on board. Immigration is entirely within the control of the executive. That's why they are now able to let people in directly without a visa once it got urgent enough to give a shit - because it is at the discretion of the department. As for this specific situation: The Taliban didn't control the country until very recently. Thousands of people have been at the airport, waiting for planes - you may have seen pictures of them crowding the airstrip. The Taliban has not been preventing them from flying out, the lack of planes and lack of letting them on the planes has been preventing them. People have been applying for visas for months, in public, and not getting them. Some of these people have been waiting for years. There is no universe in which any of what you just said is a valid reason for letting everything turn into a dumpster fire in the first place, and there is no way to excuse the existence of this dumpster fire by praising how well they're handling the massive dumpster fire they created.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Immigration is entirely within the control of the executive. No, its not; immigration control is a power Constitutionally assigned to Congress and which Congress has extensively prescribed rules on. Courts have repeatedly in recent years invalidated executive immigration actions as violation of legislative rules, both substantive and procedural.
      - lazyasciiart 5y ago
        For any single individual, the choice on whether to let them in or not is up to the executive branch. It is far more common for them to use their discretionary options to deny people entry, but this is a magical case where they are actually doing the opposite - "DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas is using his humanitarian parole authority to allow at-risk Afghans without visas to enter the U.S" https://twitter.com/camiloreports/status/1430198432434737153?s=20 https://twitter.com/camiloreports/status/1430198432434737153...
      - lazyasciiart 5y ago
        So perhaps I should have said 'the implementation of immigration is entirely within the control of the executive'. There are extensive rules with discretionary holes large enough to admit or deny the entire population of Afghanistan.
  - nanis 5y ago
    > convince the Taliban This is the depths to which American credibility has sunk. We have to convince them because we have left ourselves no options[1]. Except that they have no interest in being "convinced", but every interest in demonstrating to friend and foe alike that the U.S. has capitulated[2]. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28224405 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28224405 [2]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9922849/Biden-tells-G7-leaders-hell-LEAVE-Afghanistan-August-31.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9922849/Biden-tells...
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    And it is neither amusing or surprising to see another 'too smart for u' commentator choose cynical apathy and misinformation over the challenge of dealing with reality: this didn't have to happen.
_-david-_ 5y ago
There are a variety of experts who are saying the same thing as me. While I am not an expert it doesn't mean my view is not based on what experts say. If you want to blame some one for not listening to experts then blame Biden. He did not listen to his experts who said Afghanistan would fall quickly. [1] If he had maybe he would have evacuated people and weapons earlier. If anybody is playing politics it is you. This is a complete disaster. Maybe you should take a minute or two a think through the situation. Anybody who thinks not even being able to get our own people out, let alone those who aided us, is not a disaster is ignoring the facts. If this happened under Trump would you be making the same argument? I know I would. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us/politics/afghanistan-biden-administration.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us/politics/afghanistan-b...

by _jal 5y ago

lazyasciiart 5y ago

I don't understand how you can not list six ways it could have been done better. The US runs it's own visa program. There is nobody except the US to blame for the existence of a single Afghan who worked with them and did not have a permanent US visa for their family before the deadline to leave. And if internal American incompetence prevented that, then every one of them should have had an emergency visa that allowed them to fly out on American planes to America and be processed there.

_jal 5y ago
> then every one of them should have had an emergency visa that allowed them to fly out on American planes to America and be processed there This is fantasy. Even if you could get divided government on board, how are you going to convince the Taliban to let them out? If you think it should have been done in "secret" beforehand, please explain how you get literally thousands of people, many in visible positions, out without being noticed. This is just one example of a demand for something that could not happen. They've evac'ed over 100K people so far. It is the largest such operation in history, and it is actually going relatively well. It is amusing, but not surprising, to see all the 'savvy' media consumers here get rolled.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  >how are you going to convince the Taliban to let them out Easy. Don't let the country fall into the hands of the Taliban before getting people out. That would prevent negotiations with some of the worst people in the world.
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  You don't need the 'divided government' on board. Immigration is entirely within the control of the executive. That's why they are now able to let people in directly without a visa once it got urgent enough to give a shit - because it is at the discretion of the department. As for this specific situation: The Taliban didn't control the country until very recently. Thousands of people have been at the airport, waiting for planes - you may have seen pictures of them crowding the airstrip. The Taliban has not been preventing them from flying out, the lack of planes and lack of letting them on the planes has been preventing them. People have been applying for visas for months, in public, and not getting them. Some of these people have been waiting for years. There is no universe in which any of what you just said is a valid reason for letting everything turn into a dumpster fire in the first place, and there is no way to excuse the existence of this dumpster fire by praising how well they're handling the massive dumpster fire they created.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Immigration is entirely within the control of the executive. No, its not; immigration control is a power Constitutionally assigned to Congress and which Congress has extensively prescribed rules on. Courts have repeatedly in recent years invalidated executive immigration actions as violation of legislative rules, both substantive and procedural.
    - lazyasciiart 5y ago
      For any single individual, the choice on whether to let them in or not is up to the executive branch. It is far more common for them to use their discretionary options to deny people entry, but this is a magical case where they are actually doing the opposite - "DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas is using his humanitarian parole authority to allow at-risk Afghans without visas to enter the U.S" https://twitter.com/camiloreports/status/1430198432434737153?s=20 https://twitter.com/camiloreports/status/1430198432434737153...
    - lazyasciiart 5y ago
      So perhaps I should have said 'the implementation of immigration is entirely within the control of the executive'. There are extensive rules with discretionary holes large enough to admit or deny the entire population of Afghanistan.
- nanis 5y ago
  > convince the Taliban This is the depths to which American credibility has sunk. We have to convince them because we have left ourselves no options[1]. Except that they have no interest in being "convinced", but every interest in demonstrating to friend and foe alike that the U.S. has capitulated[2]. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28224405 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28224405 [2]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9922849/Biden-tells-G7-leaders-hell-LEAVE-Afghanistan-August-31.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9922849/Biden-tells...
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  And it is neither amusing or surprising to see another 'too smart for u' commentator choose cynical apathy and misinformation over the challenge of dealing with reality: this didn't have to happen.

_-david-_ 5y ago

There are a variety of experts who are saying the same thing as me. While I am not an expert it doesn't mean my view is not based on what experts say. If you want to blame some one for not listening to experts then blame Biden. He did not listen to his experts who said Afghanistan would fall quickly. [1] If he had maybe he would have evacuated people and weapons earlier. If anybody is playing politics it is you. This is a complete disaster. Maybe you should take a minute or two a think through the situation. Anybody who thinks not even being able to get our own people out, let alone those who aided us, is not a disaster is ignoring the facts. If this happened under Trump would you be making the same argument? I know I would. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us/politics/afghanistan-biden-administration.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us/politics/afghanistan-b...