5 ms·

If HN can look past the usual tropes, there's something interesting here. Lewis is trying to solve a problem a lot of other people are trying to solve: how can

If HN can look past the usual tropes, there's something interesting here. Lewis is trying to solve a problem a lot of other people are trying to solve: how can you have a normal community in US culture? Let me list a few solutions and you will see why his is better than average. 1. Religion. Pros: Going to church has tied communities together for millennia, and if you could just find some better pastors, it could continue for several millennia more. Cons: Secularly administering religion like a drug to treat social ills is against the precepts of every known religion, due to the fact that we'd all expect missionaries to believe what they're preaching. People who go around saying "I believe because it helps me" but who do not actually believe anything notwithstanding, we all know that's not self-consistent. 2. An amalgamation of historical myths and power structures that tie people together on the basis of perceived brotherhood. Pros: People love being tied together on the basis of perceived brotherhood, tribal identity has been around a long time, and there is no debating with the idea that it works. Cons: This is a description of every supremacist organization. 3. You talk to the guy at the barbershop. Pros: You like to talk to the guy at the barbershop. Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut. None of these options are perfect... but the barbershop plan is not that bad.

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
One word about the cons of #3, you can absolutely go to a black barbershop with no intentions of ever getting your haircut. Older black men will sometimes hang out there, or stop by through the day on the weekend just to catch up with one another.
ouid 5y ago
This is such a poorly crafted argument that it's hard to imagine it's not in bad faith. You listed religion twice! The only way this is representative of any kind of "normal" culture is if you have defined it that way. Let's think about a couple more ways that you could go about obtaining a community in the US. leisure: clubs, cafes, live music events, bars, gyms. proximity: neighborhood, induced parent communities from child communities. functional: PTAs, HOAs, coworkers, colleagues. etc.
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  These would be comparable examples if religion included nothing but the physical building of a church/mosque/synagogue.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- namlem 5y ago
  I disagree that most of your examples are comparable, with the exception of gyms and coworkers/colleagues to a degree. Getting your hair cut is a qualitatively different type of experience. You have to sit still while it's happening, you can't just wander off. And there's even a degree of physical intimacy involved, even if it's purely professional. Likewise, in church you have to sit still, you can't go on your phone or leave early without people judging you. I think there's a reason why fitness quasi-cults like Crossfit and Soul Cycle have emerged, because the same principle is at play, social interaction with strangers is baked into the process. Sure, there are strangers at bars, concerts, etc., but you don't really have to engage with them and can walk away or go on your phone at any time.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    > I disagree that most of your examples are comparable, with the exception of gyms and [...] You mentioned gyms: tl;dr: Karate dojos are a kind of gym with lots of community -- maybe too much! Original post: Gyms are an interesting one. Most are relatively anonymous, I think. But my (somewhere between first- and second- hand) experience of karate dojos was that they are very tight-knit, almost cultish (though not entirely in a bad way). People's SOs often joined, not really because they were interested in karate per-se, but because it was a way to spend more time together.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  As a person in their mid-30s who is having to meet and rebuild their friend group, it’s fascinating to me how the list of places you provide almost entirely are “go with a group, don’t want to be bothered” places. The hunt for the Third Place, especially among those that are “not 20” is very real and comparatively difficult. I happen to have met a smallish group of people that I can start to grow as a community with that I actually want to, but this is a recent development and I’m grateful to the people that found me.
rory 5y ago
There have to be more options than that. A country club? A service org like Rotary / Lion's Club? I'm not sure what's out there, but there must options other than Jihad, Kristallnacht, or barber shop.
- jedimastert 5y ago
  Country clubs are specifically made as exclusionary spaces for wealthy, almost always white, people.
  - rory 5y ago
    That fits the stereotype in my head, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Just that they're bad?
    - jedimastert 5y ago
      No, I'm saying that black communities are disproportionately affected by poverty. Simply put, country clubs are not an option for the vast majority of Black Americans, not to mention the overt racism.
      - rory 5y ago
        Ah got it, makes sense. I guess I was just responding to "how can you have a normal community in US culture?" in abstract, not in regards to the people in the article.
    - cehrlich 5y ago
      That they're not a valid option for a large percentage of the population.
      - rory 5y ago
        That's true, but hanging out at a Black Barber shop is also not a realistic option for a large percentage of the population.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jedimastert 5y ago
> Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut. This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men. Gatherings of black men were (and are) seen as suspicious or "gang-related", but if there's a large gathering of black men at a barbershop, they're all just there to get a haircut, and everyone needs a haircut. It's not expected of people to get a haircut.
- twic 5y ago
  This has reminded me of the classic sitcom Desmond's, set in a Guyanese barbershop in South London, with exactly that dynamic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond%27s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond%27s Although Desmond's wife was usually around, and he had a white apprentice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxgmRB78GxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxgmRB78GxQ
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men Originally, it may have been a kinda-sorta-secret, but given the prominent role that barbershop-as-Black-social-nexus has played in popular media portrayals of Black American communities targeting general (not just Black) audiences for the last several decades, that's hardly the case any more.
  - jedimastert 5y ago
    I think the ignorance in these comments say otherwise...
    - mc32 5y ago
      There were a couple of movies around this trope. Black TV also has this trope (kind of like how other comedies might insert a bar(tender) scene). People are unaware of lots of things. Ask, who are your two senators. You'd be surprised in today's day and age of constant media barrage, but many people can't answer.
klyrs 5y ago
There's also therapy. Way more expensive than a haircut, and it's highly stigmatized especially among men. It doesn't provide community, per se, but it can help a person work through the issues that are making it hard for them to find and keep friends. And, yeah. A barbershop is a decent stand-in.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  In an ideal world there would be a professionalism gradient for mental health the same way there is for physical health. The physical health gradient starts with yourself (trying to eat healthy), passes through your friends casually assisting (participating in outdoor activities, discussing food, telling you they're staying home because they're sick), then hits easily accessible treatments (pharmacy), moves on to more difficult treatments (doctor's visit), and then finally to ultra-expensive high-risk technological approaches. In contrast, the mental health picture for isolated urban professionals starts with self-regulation, then jumps straight to being treated by The System. Therapists catch a broad range of problems that don't need all their training just by virtue of being the first rung on a ladder that starts 20 feet off the ground.
  - whymauri 5y ago
    >In contrast, the mental health picture for isolated urban professionals starts with self-regulation, then jumps straight to being treated by The System. It's pretty wild how poorly equipped some parts of the country are to treat mental health. My younger sister (13) suffers from anxiety and depression. She says she just needs a therapist to talk to, but every time my parents have reached out to local resources covered by insurance they all want to immediately destroy her future, institutionalize her FULL-TIME in a residential program, and pump her full of drugs for the next five years. School and college prep? Forget about it. Like, what the fuck? She just needs an affordable therapist... thankfully, I passed on some resources about sliding scale therapy and affordable options outside Florida Medicaid (Open Path Collective is run by angels, IMO). Yeah, she probably will need some medication, but the idea that, with only one major incident, a 4.0 GPA gifted student with a bright, educated future should essentially be orphaned and doped up through adulthood sends shivers down my spine. The options covered by Medicaid are: 1. No treatment at all, because the system is overloaded, likely leading to further decline. 2. A social and mental nuclear option, certainly leading to further trauma and isolation. TBH, it's heartbreaking to me to think about how many parents have been duped into believing this is the only option (especially with affordable remote counseling being a more available option now). Great system. We're lucky I have a well-paying software job, otherwise it's like the state wants people to suffer.
whymauri 5y ago
You can bond with people over similar ethnic or life backgrounds without devolving into supremacy... people do this all the time around the world. Obviously, there need to be reasonable limits around the 'tribal identity' that preclude supremacist behavior, but it's certainly a valid way to build relationships and feel supported.
hhs 5y ago
> Lewis is trying to solve a problem a lot of other people are trying to solve: how can you have a normal community in US culture? Indeed, in sociology this building of community is typically called the 'third place' [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
- whymauri 5y ago
  Oh wow, this is a great Wiki article -- thank you for sharing!
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  Do HN folks have a "third place" they go to?
  - opan 5y ago
    Maybe not anymore, but the public library comes to mind from my youth. Kids would hang out there, and they had computers that you could play some games on. Runescape was very popular there.
  - asdff 5y ago
    The comment section
  - corpdrone2021 5y ago
    Growing up that was always my friendly local game store.
  - lapetitejort 5y ago
    Someone in my town (~100,000 people, somewhere on the East Coast) created a "nerd space" where you could rent video game consoles, PC/Macs with pro software, some rudimentary woodworking equipment, a board game/CCG store, and generally hang out. I thought it would become my third place, and for a while it was. I met some awesome people, briefly collaborated on a game that went nowhere, taught some classes, attended trivia nights, etc. It expanded into more buildings and felt like it could become a bedrock of the town. Then it slowly started to contract. I think the only thing left is the donut shop with a small board game collection. The original buildings were demolished in favor of apartments. My guess is they couldn't pay the skyrocketing rent, and couldn't find a good spot in town where people could just sit and theoretically do whatever they wanted. Maybe a library less dependent on profit would make for a better venue?
nobodyandproud 5y ago
1. Religion: Other pros: - Highly tailored to cultural nuances. Many immigrant communities only have religion as their fallback. I cannot overstate how important this is to such communities. - In some cases, a diverse set of people and backgrounds from different points in their life. - Many religions instill a sense of humility. Other cons: - By nature ripe for abuse, without checks and balances in the structure. - A lot of work and time/financial commitment by its members. - In practice, some of the nastiest and most egotistical people I’ve met attend churches.
andruby 5y ago
Option 3 is actually the plot of an episode of the medical drama series "New Amsterdam". The main character of the show is the director of a fiction NYC public hospital. In episode 4 of season 2 he tries to encourage black men to get medical checkups. He choses to teach the barbers how to take blood pressure and prescribe some basic meds. The episode centers around the mistrust that black people in the US have of public healthcare, and how barbers are a natural social center for that community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam_(2018_TV_series)#ep26 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam_(2018_TV_series)...
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  Once upon a time, some barbers had dual jobs: cutting hair and taking care of common medical conditions. The first modern surgeon was a barber by trade. The red and white of barber poles represent blood and bandages, after all.

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago

One word about the cons of #3, you can absolutely go to a black barbershop with no intentions of ever getting your haircut. Older black men will sometimes hang out there, or stop by through the day on the weekend just to catch up with one another.

ouid 5y ago

This is such a poorly crafted argument that it's hard to imagine it's not in bad faith. You listed religion twice! The only way this is representative of any kind of "normal" culture is if you have defined it that way. Let's think about a couple more ways that you could go about obtaining a community in the US. leisure: clubs, cafes, live music events, bars, gyms. proximity: neighborhood, induced parent communities from child communities. functional: PTAs, HOAs, coworkers, colleagues. etc.

ceilingcorner 5y ago
These would be comparable examples if religion included nothing but the physical building of a church/mosque/synagogue.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
namlem 5y ago
I disagree that most of your examples are comparable, with the exception of gyms and coworkers/colleagues to a degree. Getting your hair cut is a qualitatively different type of experience. You have to sit still while it's happening, you can't just wander off. And there's even a degree of physical intimacy involved, even if it's purely professional. Likewise, in church you have to sit still, you can't go on your phone or leave early without people judging you. I think there's a reason why fitness quasi-cults like Crossfit and Soul Cycle have emerged, because the same principle is at play, social interaction with strangers is baked into the process. Sure, there are strangers at bars, concerts, etc., but you don't really have to engage with them and can walk away or go on your phone at any time.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  > I disagree that most of your examples are comparable, with the exception of gyms and [...] You mentioned gyms: tl;dr: Karate dojos are a kind of gym with lots of community -- maybe too much! Original post: Gyms are an interesting one. Most are relatively anonymous, I think. But my (somewhere between first- and second- hand) experience of karate dojos was that they are very tight-knit, almost cultish (though not entirely in a bad way). People's SOs often joined, not really because they were interested in karate per-se, but because it was a way to spend more time together.
t-writescode 5y ago
As a person in their mid-30s who is having to meet and rebuild their friend group, it’s fascinating to me how the list of places you provide almost entirely are “go with a group, don’t want to be bothered” places. The hunt for the Third Place, especially among those that are “not 20” is very real and comparatively difficult. I happen to have met a smallish group of people that I can start to grow as a community with that I actually want to, but this is a recent development and I’m grateful to the people that found me.

rory 5y ago

There have to be more options than that. A country club? A service org like Rotary / Lion's Club? I'm not sure what's out there, but there must options other than Jihad, Kristallnacht, or barber shop.

jedimastert 5y ago
Country clubs are specifically made as exclusionary spaces for wealthy, almost always white, people.
- rory 5y ago
  That fits the stereotype in my head, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Just that they're bad?
  - jedimastert 5y ago
    No, I'm saying that black communities are disproportionately affected by poverty. Simply put, country clubs are not an option for the vast majority of Black Americans, not to mention the overt racism.
    - rory 5y ago
      Ah got it, makes sense. I guess I was just responding to "how can you have a normal community in US culture?" in abstract, not in regards to the people in the article.
  - cehrlich 5y ago
    That they're not a valid option for a large percentage of the population.
    - rory 5y ago
      That's true, but hanging out at a Black Barber shop is also not a realistic option for a large percentage of the population.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jedimastert 5y ago

> Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut. This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men. Gatherings of black men were (and are) seen as suspicious or "gang-related", but if there's a large gathering of black men at a barbershop, they're all just there to get a haircut, and everyone needs a haircut. It's not expected of people to get a haircut.

twic 5y ago
This has reminded me of the classic sitcom Desmond's, set in a Guyanese barbershop in South London, with exactly that dynamic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond%27s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond%27s Although Desmond's wife was usually around, and he had a white apprentice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxgmRB78GxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxgmRB78GxQ
dragonwriter 5y ago
> This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men Originally, it may have been a kinda-sorta-secret, but given the prominent role that barbershop-as-Black-social-nexus has played in popular media portrayals of Black American communities targeting general (not just Black) audiences for the last several decades, that's hardly the case any more.
- jedimastert 5y ago
  I think the ignorance in these comments say otherwise...
  - mc32 5y ago
    There were a couple of movies around this trope. Black TV also has this trope (kind of like how other comedies might insert a bar(tender) scene). People are unaware of lots of things. Ask, who are your two senators. You'd be surprised in today's day and age of constant media barrage, but many people can't answer.

klyrs 5y ago

There's also therapy. Way more expensive than a haircut, and it's highly stigmatized especially among men. It doesn't provide community, per se, but it can help a person work through the issues that are making it hard for them to find and keep friends. And, yeah. A barbershop is a decent stand-in.

whatshisface 5y ago
In an ideal world there would be a professionalism gradient for mental health the same way there is for physical health. The physical health gradient starts with yourself (trying to eat healthy), passes through your friends casually assisting (participating in outdoor activities, discussing food, telling you they're staying home because they're sick), then hits easily accessible treatments (pharmacy), moves on to more difficult treatments (doctor's visit), and then finally to ultra-expensive high-risk technological approaches. In contrast, the mental health picture for isolated urban professionals starts with self-regulation, then jumps straight to being treated by The System. Therapists catch a broad range of problems that don't need all their training just by virtue of being the first rung on a ladder that starts 20 feet off the ground.
- whymauri 5y ago
  >In contrast, the mental health picture for isolated urban professionals starts with self-regulation, then jumps straight to being treated by The System. It's pretty wild how poorly equipped some parts of the country are to treat mental health. My younger sister (13) suffers from anxiety and depression. She says she just needs a therapist to talk to, but every time my parents have reached out to local resources covered by insurance they all want to immediately destroy her future, institutionalize her FULL-TIME in a residential program, and pump her full of drugs for the next five years. School and college prep? Forget about it. Like, what the fuck? She just needs an affordable therapist... thankfully, I passed on some resources about sliding scale therapy and affordable options outside Florida Medicaid (Open Path Collective is run by angels, IMO). Yeah, she probably will need some medication, but the idea that, with only one major incident, a 4.0 GPA gifted student with a bright, educated future should essentially be orphaned and doped up through adulthood sends shivers down my spine. The options covered by Medicaid are: 1. No treatment at all, because the system is overloaded, likely leading to further decline. 2. A social and mental nuclear option, certainly leading to further trauma and isolation. TBH, it's heartbreaking to me to think about how many parents have been duped into believing this is the only option (especially with affordable remote counseling being a more available option now). Great system. We're lucky I have a well-paying software job, otherwise it's like the state wants people to suffer.

whymauri 5y ago

You can bond with people over similar ethnic or life backgrounds without devolving into supremacy... people do this all the time around the world. Obviously, there need to be reasonable limits around the 'tribal identity' that preclude supremacist behavior, but it's certainly a valid way to build relationships and feel supported.

hhs 5y ago

> Lewis is trying to solve a problem a lot of other people are trying to solve: how can you have a normal community in US culture? Indeed, in sociology this building of community is typically called the 'third place' [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

whymauri 5y ago
Oh wow, this is a great Wiki article -- thank you for sharing!
honkdaddy 5y ago
Do HN folks have a "third place" they go to?
- opan 5y ago
  Maybe not anymore, but the public library comes to mind from my youth. Kids would hang out there, and they had computers that you could play some games on. Runescape was very popular there.
- asdff 5y ago
  The comment section
- corpdrone2021 5y ago
  Growing up that was always my friendly local game store.
- lapetitejort 5y ago
  Someone in my town (~100,000 people, somewhere on the East Coast) created a "nerd space" where you could rent video game consoles, PC/Macs with pro software, some rudimentary woodworking equipment, a board game/CCG store, and generally hang out. I thought it would become my third place, and for a while it was. I met some awesome people, briefly collaborated on a game that went nowhere, taught some classes, attended trivia nights, etc. It expanded into more buildings and felt like it could become a bedrock of the town. Then it slowly started to contract. I think the only thing left is the donut shop with a small board game collection. The original buildings were demolished in favor of apartments. My guess is they couldn't pay the skyrocketing rent, and couldn't find a good spot in town where people could just sit and theoretically do whatever they wanted. Maybe a library less dependent on profit would make for a better venue?

nobodyandproud 5y ago

1. Religion: Other pros: - Highly tailored to cultural nuances. Many immigrant communities only have religion as their fallback. I cannot overstate how important this is to such communities. - In some cases, a diverse set of people and backgrounds from different points in their life. - Many religions instill a sense of humility. Other cons: - By nature ripe for abuse, without checks and balances in the structure. - A lot of work and time/financial commitment by its members. - In practice, some of the nastiest and most egotistical people I’ve met attend churches.

andruby 5y ago

Option 3 is actually the plot of an episode of the medical drama series "New Amsterdam". The main character of the show is the director of a fiction NYC public hospital. In episode 4 of season 2 he tries to encourage black men to get medical checkups. He choses to teach the barbers how to take blood pressure and prescribe some basic meds. The episode centers around the mistrust that black people in the US have of public healthcare, and how barbers are a natural social center for that community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam_(2018_TV_series)#ep26 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam_(2018_TV_series)...

MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Once upon a time, some barbers had dual jobs: cutting hair and taking care of common medical conditions. The first modern surgeon was a barber by trade. The red and white of barber poles represent blood and bandages, after all.