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>The convict gets the option of jail or chicken farm I'm not convinced that's always true. There's many different courts from different states sending people

by tyingq 5y ago

>The convict gets the option of jail or chicken farm I'm not convinced that's always true. There's many different courts from different states sending people there. At the very least, there are probably threats of much longer prison times. Like "1 year at the chicken farm" or "3-5 years in prison" perhaps. Or "1 year at the chicken farm that's eligible to be expunged from your record" vs "1 year in prison that will always be hanging over you in the form of background checks". Prosecutors and judges are quite good at making optional things not really optional and have all sorts of levers they can pull (credit for back time, waiving court costs, dropping X of Y charges, "enhancements" of charges, pre-sentencing conditions, deferred adjudication, and so on).

kwhitefoot 5y ago
Providing jail as the alternative fits the definition of forced labour under the 1930 UN Convention on Forced Labour "UN Convention No. 29 concerning forced or compulsory labour defines ‘forced or compulsory labour’ as ‘all work or service which is exacted from any person under the menace of any penalty and for which the said person has not offered himself voluntarily’. " See https://www.un.org/ruleoflaw/files/ILO_Convention_29.pdf https://www.un.org/ruleoflaw/files/ILO_Convention_29.pdf
- lelanthran 5y ago
  That doesn't say what you think it says. There is no menace of penalty; the person in question is already sentenced to imprisonment for their crime. The option to escape imprisonment via "rehab" or "labour" is done voluntarily while they are under the sentence handed to them. IOW, the convict is offered an option to not serve their imprisonment. They're free to reject it and continue to serve out their imprisonment. This is not forced labour, as their is no penalty imposed on them for refusing the offer.
  - goldenkey 5y ago
    The jail time is almost always higher than it would have been under normal circumstances in order to make the choice "forced" without actually being forced. It's an age old trick of plea deals and prosecution perversion.
    - lelanthran 5y ago
      > The jail time is almost always higher than it would have been under normal circumstances in order to make the choice "forced" without actually being forced. It's an age old trick of plea deals and prosecution perversion. Yes it is, and I already said that, but that still doesn't make it forced labour.
      - goldenkey 5y ago
        That's literally the point. It technically isn't but it straightforwardly is. Hence why they are able to get away with it.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Actually such programs are often a form of "diversion" you haven't actually even been convicted yet. Say someone robs a store to feed their drug habit. In the good form of this we realize that drugs are the root cause and allow someone to complete drug treatment instead of going to prison. If you complete it the charges are dropped and you don't have to live the rest of your life as a felon. People just realized that they could create "Christian" work programs where they mix in a gram of jesus into their 10 tons of hard labor as marketing or flavor if you prefer. 1.Low Level Offense 2. Diversion 3. Slavery 4. Profit
    - lelanthran 5y ago
      > Actually such programs are often a form of "diversion" you haven't actually even been convicted yet. Are you sure? All the cases I know off (including the ones in the article) have these deals made only after conviction but before sentencing[1]. [1] Most people don't realise that those are two separate processes, commonly rolled into a single court date. It is not unusual to have one appearance for judgement (conviction) and a separate one for sentencing.
- voxic11 5y ago
  That convention was never ratified by the US and forced labor as punishment for crime is explicitly allowed by the 13th amendment.
lelanthran 5y ago
> At the very least, there are probably threats of much longer prison times. Like "1 year at the chicken farm" or "3-5 years in prison" perhaps. Or "1 year at the chicken farm that's eligible to be expunged from your record" vs "1 year in prison that will always be hanging over you in the form of background checks". Prosecutors and judges are quite good at making optional things not really optional and have all sorts of levers they can pull (credit for back time, waiving court costs, dropping X of Y charges, "enhancements" of charges, pre-sentencing conditions, deferred adjudication, and so on). Didn't I say all that with > The problem arises when Judges (who, like you said, may have an incentive to provide slaves) start weighting the jail option heavier in order to promote the chicken farm option ???
- tyingq 5y ago
  It feels heavy enough that the word "option" often no longer applies.
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > It feels heavy enough that the word "option" often no longer applies. Maybe, but the article omits any details about what was offered, so we can't tell if it was a fair or transparent offer to the convict. All we can do is say "We FEEL that it is unfair", because there are no facts for us to say "We KNOW this is unfair". The article is just too biased.
    - tyingq 5y ago
      He was sent to a rehab facility when he had no addiction problem[1]. He was forced to attend AA meetings, etc. That's enough for me to assume the state had other motives. [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3921800-McGahey-PSI-Investigation.html#document/p2/a367752 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3921800-McGahey-PSI-... (linked from the article)

by tyingq 5y ago

kwhitefoot 5y ago

Providing jail as the alternative fits the definition of forced labour under the 1930 UN Convention on Forced Labour "UN Convention No. 29 concerning forced or compulsory labour defines ‘forced or compulsory labour’ as ‘all work or service which is exacted from any person under the menace of any penalty and for which the said person has not offered himself voluntarily’. " See https://www.un.org/ruleoflaw/files/ILO_Convention_29.pdf https://www.un.org/ruleoflaw/files/ILO_Convention_29.pdf

lelanthran 5y ago
That doesn't say what you think it says. There is no menace of penalty; the person in question is already sentenced to imprisonment for their crime. The option to escape imprisonment via "rehab" or "labour" is done voluntarily while they are under the sentence handed to them. IOW, the convict is offered an option to not serve their imprisonment. They're free to reject it and continue to serve out their imprisonment. This is not forced labour, as their is no penalty imposed on them for refusing the offer.
- goldenkey 5y ago
  The jail time is almost always higher than it would have been under normal circumstances in order to make the choice "forced" without actually being forced. It's an age old trick of plea deals and prosecution perversion.
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > The jail time is almost always higher than it would have been under normal circumstances in order to make the choice "forced" without actually being forced. It's an age old trick of plea deals and prosecution perversion. Yes it is, and I already said that, but that still doesn't make it forced labour.
    - goldenkey 5y ago
      That's literally the point. It technically isn't but it straightforwardly is. Hence why they are able to get away with it.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Actually such programs are often a form of "diversion" you haven't actually even been convicted yet. Say someone robs a store to feed their drug habit. In the good form of this we realize that drugs are the root cause and allow someone to complete drug treatment instead of going to prison. If you complete it the charges are dropped and you don't have to live the rest of your life as a felon. People just realized that they could create "Christian" work programs where they mix in a gram of jesus into their 10 tons of hard labor as marketing or flavor if you prefer. 1.Low Level Offense 2. Diversion 3. Slavery 4. Profit
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > Actually such programs are often a form of "diversion" you haven't actually even been convicted yet. Are you sure? All the cases I know off (including the ones in the article) have these deals made only after conviction but before sentencing[1]. [1] Most people don't realise that those are two separate processes, commonly rolled into a single court date. It is not unusual to have one appearance for judgement (conviction) and a separate one for sentencing.
voxic11 5y ago
That convention was never ratified by the US and forced labor as punishment for crime is explicitly allowed by the 13th amendment.

lelanthran 5y ago

> At the very least, there are probably threats of much longer prison times. Like "1 year at the chicken farm" or "3-5 years in prison" perhaps. Or "1 year at the chicken farm that's eligible to be expunged from your record" vs "1 year in prison that will always be hanging over you in the form of background checks". Prosecutors and judges are quite good at making optional things not really optional and have all sorts of levers they can pull (credit for back time, waiving court costs, dropping X of Y charges, "enhancements" of charges, pre-sentencing conditions, deferred adjudication, and so on). Didn't I say all that with > The problem arises when Judges (who, like you said, may have an incentive to provide slaves) start weighting the jail option heavier in order to promote the chicken farm option ???

tyingq 5y ago
It feels heavy enough that the word "option" often no longer applies.
- lelanthran 5y ago
  > It feels heavy enough that the word "option" often no longer applies. Maybe, but the article omits any details about what was offered, so we can't tell if it was a fair or transparent offer to the convict. All we can do is say "We FEEL that it is unfair", because there are no facts for us to say "We KNOW this is unfair". The article is just too biased.
  - tyingq 5y ago
    He was sent to a rehab facility when he had no addiction problem[1]. He was forced to attend AA meetings, etc. That's enough for me to assume the state had other motives. [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3921800-McGahey-PSI-Investigation.html#document/p2/a367752 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3921800-McGahey-PSI-... (linked from the article)