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> they'll try to find a way to enable the cameras on unlocked phones in the future. In the meantime, I will only buy what ACTUALLY gives me control RIGHT NOW,

> they'll try to find a way to enable the cameras on unlocked phones in the future. In the meantime, I will only buy what ACTUALLY gives me control RIGHT NOW, namely, what is supported by LineageOS: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/

ddtaylor 5y ago
The average consumer only wants to purchase the cross-section between what is the cheapest and works the best. For most consumers Open Source is not a feature.
- danuker 5y ago
  With various right-to-repair legislation popping up everywhere, I am not so sure. Software restrictions are one way to ensure planned obsolescence.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    Actually, there is a specific set of features that guarantees planned obsolescence: * Irreplaceable battery (or one that is difficult to remove by the user). * on the iPhone, the Lightning socket and the Home button. The former starts to wear out after ca. 5 years; the Home button lasts a bit longer. Apple will repair both these for you but at this point you will be tempted to buy a new device instead because of the costs involved. * the support for older devices is being dropped from SDKs. With time, it becomes more and more difficult to develop apps for your device. For many developers this is something completely natural and reasonable. For me it's not. I'm not asking Apple to support iPhone 4s (would be nice, but it's unrealistic), but just to let me still run and provision apps on my old MacBook with a previous version of Xcode. It used to work well in 2012, why can't I do it now? Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade, produce tons of electric waste, buy more, buy more. OK, I am buying new devices, but I care about the old ones. I won't throw away a perfectly working phone that will serve me another 10 years just because it is not considered modern enough. EOL-ed smartphones are powerful computers, they have tons of different uses, I wish manufacturers recognized it and collaborate with their customers to reduce the amount of electrowaste.
    - qweqwweqwe-90i 5y ago
      For most people, EOL phones have 0 use.
- forgotmypw17 5y ago
  I think this will change as devices become more long-lived (I still use an Android 5.x device today) and more repairable. For many it won't matter, but for many it will. You can see a similar thing today with automobiles. Some people only buy for features and let it go after a couple years, but many others also consider longevity and repair and parts costs.
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
I feel LineageOS + F-Droid is often underrated when it comes to these discussions about alternate ecosystems. If we're ready to let go of name brands, then F-Droid has some very high quality apps[1] built with passion over profit. But I agree that the initial friction to setup LineageOS on the device is far too high for a non-technical customer, Something which could be only resolved if a devices ships with LineageOS(I think even F(x)tec, Fairphone requires the user to flash LineageOS) but then again memories of that fateful tie-up with device manufacturer which ended CyanogenMod would be fresh within LineageOS team. Now that's the catch-22, Alternate exists but not for everyone. [1] https://github.com/SimpleMobileTools https://github.com/SimpleMobileTools
- jankotek 5y ago
  I had run LineageOS for some time. It works, but FDroid is missing too many apps, even opensource like Signal. I have to update apks manually every few months.
  - agilob 5y ago
    Signal team fought a long war against any forks or unauthorised builds of Signal. There are (or were) FDroid repositories with Signal compatible builds, but Moxie stated that any such build will be considered malware. Signal team was making such builds increasingly difficult to produce. Official F-Droid repo doesn't allow proprietary dependencies on which Signal depends for some messages (push?)
    - paulcarroty 5y ago
      > Signal team fought a long war against any forks or unauthorised builds of Signal. Yeah, this is main reason why I avoid Signal together with Google Services usage.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - fouc 5y ago
      Why doesn't Signal maintain an F-Droid compatible build? (if there's a dependency problem, then they should considering dropping it, release a Signal lite perhaps)
arsome 5y ago
Personally I refuse to buy any device that requires me to go crying to the manufacturer for an unlock key. Google and OnePlus devices can be unlocked locally with no need to contact anyone and beg, so no one can refuse your unlock on a device you already paid for.
- flyinghamster 5y ago
  T-Mobile US's LG devices came with unlockable bootloaders as well, but that only helps if someone develops a ROM for it. Even then, more and more important functionality is getting locked behind closed doors. On my Stylo 5, it's not the camera, it's VoLTE. What good is it to run a custom ROM if I can't make and receive phone calls?
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    For me, personally, a major reason to unlock the bootloader is to install Magisk. Running an entire ROM is nice if you can find a trusted and supported one, but failing that, root access is the next best thing. I've got background clipboard sync back in KDE Connect through a Magisk module. No need for an entire LineageOS ROM (would be nice if it were officially supported) if everything I want can be done another way. VoLTE is incredibly fragile. You can often force enable it and it'll just work, but there's so much that can go wrong that I wouldn't risk it.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      Just curious, is there any "trusted" custom ROMs? It seems that LineageOS is most reputed, but are they doing some good work about trustworthy like reproducible build, or just a reputation?. I was using random custom roms from xda until Jerry Bean era, but I'm now afraid to install entire OS.
      - foresto 5y ago
        Maybe GrapheneOS?
ByteWelder 5y ago
If you want to free yourself from the clutches of Google, I recommend the LineageOS microG fork: https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/
atatatat 5y ago
You'll have the control to...not even lock your bootloader. Use GrapheneOS, if you want something resembling security.
- floatboth 5y ago
  The GrapheneOS developers like to talk as if relocking the bootloader is unique to Google Pixels and providing a custom key is unique to them. But that's not true. Every OnePlus device in the last few years allows avb_custom_key as well, Xiaomi Mi A2 does too, probably many others. And ROMs like Pixel Experience publish their custom keys too.
  - sphinxcdi 5y ago
    Relocking the bootloader doesn't imply that verified boot is enabled or that that it's not broken for alternate OSes, as is the case for the devices you mentioned. https://twitter.com/GrapheneOS/status/1423665850725408771 https://twitter.com/GrapheneOS/status/1423665850725408771
- summm 5y ago
  But then they don't allow me to have root at the same time. They claim it is for security reasons but fail to explain why and get really unfriendly. Maybe some power-trip? So now I can choose between vendor lock-in and random-programmer-lock-in.
p1mrx 5y ago
Buying a LineageOS-supported device doesn't necessarily help. I bought a Pixel 2 from the Google store, and later replaced it under warranty due to a bad microphone. Now the bootloader is permanently locked, and security updates ended in 2020. This is a widespread issue with no known solution: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/thread/14920605/google-refurbished-pixel-2-is-always-defective-bootloader-unlock https://support.google.com/pixelphone/thread/14920605/google...

ddtaylor 5y ago

The average consumer only wants to purchase the cross-section between what is the cheapest and works the best. For most consumers Open Source is not a feature.

danuker 5y ago
With various right-to-repair legislation popping up everywhere, I am not so sure. Software restrictions are one way to ensure planned obsolescence.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  Actually, there is a specific set of features that guarantees planned obsolescence: * Irreplaceable battery (or one that is difficult to remove by the user). * on the iPhone, the Lightning socket and the Home button. The former starts to wear out after ca. 5 years; the Home button lasts a bit longer. Apple will repair both these for you but at this point you will be tempted to buy a new device instead because of the costs involved. * the support for older devices is being dropped from SDKs. With time, it becomes more and more difficult to develop apps for your device. For many developers this is something completely natural and reasonable. For me it's not. I'm not asking Apple to support iPhone 4s (would be nice, but it's unrealistic), but just to let me still run and provision apps on my old MacBook with a previous version of Xcode. It used to work well in 2012, why can't I do it now? Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade, produce tons of electric waste, buy more, buy more. OK, I am buying new devices, but I care about the old ones. I won't throw away a perfectly working phone that will serve me another 10 years just because it is not considered modern enough. EOL-ed smartphones are powerful computers, they have tons of different uses, I wish manufacturers recognized it and collaborate with their customers to reduce the amount of electrowaste.
  - qweqwweqwe-90i 5y ago
    For most people, EOL phones have 0 use.
forgotmypw17 5y ago
I think this will change as devices become more long-lived (I still use an Android 5.x device today) and more repairable. For many it won't matter, but for many it will. You can see a similar thing today with automobiles. Some people only buy for features and let it go after a couple years, but many others also consider longevity and repair and parts costs.

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

I feel LineageOS + F-Droid is often underrated when it comes to these discussions about alternate ecosystems. If we're ready to let go of name brands, then F-Droid has some very high quality apps[1] built with passion over profit. But I agree that the initial friction to setup LineageOS on the device is far too high for a non-technical customer, Something which could be only resolved if a devices ships with LineageOS(I think even F(x)tec, Fairphone requires the user to flash LineageOS) but then again memories of that fateful tie-up with device manufacturer which ended CyanogenMod would be fresh within LineageOS team. Now that's the catch-22, Alternate exists but not for everyone. [1] https://github.com/SimpleMobileTools https://github.com/SimpleMobileTools

jankotek 5y ago
I had run LineageOS for some time. It works, but FDroid is missing too many apps, even opensource like Signal. I have to update apks manually every few months.
- agilob 5y ago
  Signal team fought a long war against any forks or unauthorised builds of Signal. There are (or were) FDroid repositories with Signal compatible builds, but Moxie stated that any such build will be considered malware. Signal team was making such builds increasingly difficult to produce. Official F-Droid repo doesn't allow proprietary dependencies on which Signal depends for some messages (push?)
  - paulcarroty 5y ago
    > Signal team fought a long war against any forks or unauthorised builds of Signal. Yeah, this is main reason why I avoid Signal together with Google Services usage.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - fouc 5y ago
    Why doesn't Signal maintain an F-Droid compatible build? (if there's a dependency problem, then they should considering dropping it, release a Signal lite perhaps)

arsome 5y ago

Personally I refuse to buy any device that requires me to go crying to the manufacturer for an unlock key. Google and OnePlus devices can be unlocked locally with no need to contact anyone and beg, so no one can refuse your unlock on a device you already paid for.

flyinghamster 5y ago
T-Mobile US's LG devices came with unlockable bootloaders as well, but that only helps if someone develops a ROM for it. Even then, more and more important functionality is getting locked behind closed doors. On my Stylo 5, it's not the camera, it's VoLTE. What good is it to run a custom ROM if I can't make and receive phone calls?
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  For me, personally, a major reason to unlock the bootloader is to install Magisk. Running an entire ROM is nice if you can find a trusted and supported one, but failing that, root access is the next best thing. I've got background clipboard sync back in KDE Connect through a Magisk module. No need for an entire LineageOS ROM (would be nice if it were officially supported) if everything I want can be done another way. VoLTE is incredibly fragile. You can often force enable it and it'll just work, but there's so much that can go wrong that I wouldn't risk it.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    Just curious, is there any "trusted" custom ROMs? It seems that LineageOS is most reputed, but are they doing some good work about trustworthy like reproducible build, or just a reputation?. I was using random custom roms from xda until Jerry Bean era, but I'm now afraid to install entire OS.
    - foresto 5y ago
      Maybe GrapheneOS?

ByteWelder 5y ago

If you want to free yourself from the clutches of Google, I recommend the LineageOS microG fork: https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/

atatatat 5y ago

You'll have the control to...not even lock your bootloader. Use GrapheneOS, if you want something resembling security.

floatboth 5y ago
The GrapheneOS developers like to talk as if relocking the bootloader is unique to Google Pixels and providing a custom key is unique to them. But that's not true. Every OnePlus device in the last few years allows avb_custom_key as well, Xiaomi Mi A2 does too, probably many others. And ROMs like Pixel Experience publish their custom keys too.
- sphinxcdi 5y ago
  Relocking the bootloader doesn't imply that verified boot is enabled or that that it's not broken for alternate OSes, as is the case for the devices you mentioned. https://twitter.com/GrapheneOS/status/1423665850725408771 https://twitter.com/GrapheneOS/status/1423665850725408771
summm 5y ago
But then they don't allow me to have root at the same time. They claim it is for security reasons but fail to explain why and get really unfriendly. Maybe some power-trip? So now I can choose between vendor lock-in and random-programmer-lock-in.

p1mrx 5y ago

Buying a LineageOS-supported device doesn't necessarily help. I bought a Pixel 2 from the Google store, and later replaced it under warranty due to a bad microphone. Now the bootloader is permanently locked, and security updates ended in 2020. This is a widespread issue with no known solution: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/thread/14920605/google-refurbished-pixel-2-is-always-defective-bootloader-unlock https://support.google.com/pixelphone/thread/14920605/google...