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What to Make of Isaac Asimov, Sci-Fi Giant and Dirty Old Man?

7 points by bongoman37 5y ago

coldtea 5y ago
Well, what do we know about the life of the article's author and what failings they have, what they have done and whom they hurt? Furthermore, how it's relevant in 2021? Asimov could have joined the Nazis and sacrifice orphans to satan and still be a Sci-Fi giant, which is based on his writings, not his behavior... We could condemn the behavior or sympathize with those affected, but that's about it. He's also 30 years dead by this point, I think the statute of limitations has passed...
- dariusj18 5y ago
  If only it was so easy to separate the artist from the art. In the case of a posthumous artist it is a little easier, however a capitalist society intertwines behavior and product to the point where if you support the product you are supporting the behavior that produced it.
  - Ajay-p 5y ago
    Steve Jobs was a terrible person who treated people horribly. Are you willing to give up your iPhone for that? Google has invaded our privacy and sold our data to the highest bidder. Will you give your Android phone? No, of course you won't, because you live in a capitalist system. In a capitalist society it is easy to separate because you can choose to support the person, the product, or neither. In a communist system you have no choice, you must support the system, the people, and the product - which is inseparable from the government - or else. By "else" I mean imprisonment and death. I would prefer to live under a capitalist system because then at least I have the option to choose to support the maker, the product, or neither.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      It's not easy to live in the modern world without an iPhone or an Android. I know, because I chose not to have either one. It's becoming increasingly difficult to choose "neither". I expect some day I'll be forced to do so. By your description, that will be a failure of capitalism. When do you think it will happen? When I can't charge my car because all the charging stations require an app that only works on Android and iOS? When I can't easily get food because the restaurants switch to app-only sales, or smart phone payment? When it's difficult to buy a good quality local map because everyone uses in-phone GPS? When I need two-factor auth for a site that only supports a cell phone as the second auth? The list gets longer and longer.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Maybe you'll get an IMF-NWO-issued electronic collar ...err... 'smart-thing' for free? With your shiny new 'cyber-ID' 'physically unclonable' embedded into it.
    - dariusj18 5y ago
      Not at all relevant to my point. I was speaking very specifically of art and artists. We could get into similar issues with the morality of consumption and the role of government, but given how you reacted to my comment I can only guess it wouldn't be a very interesting discussion.
- eesmith 5y ago
  People write and read biographies all the time. There can be multiple biographies on the same person, each written with a different take on the subject. And every author of those biographies also has failings. But your questions seem to suggest that these biographies aren't worthy for some reason? I'm a big Heinlein fan. I find it useful to turn to some of the body of writings about Heinlein to understand why he wrote as he did. As just one example, I did not understand that the main character of "Tunnel in the Sky" was Black. This wasn't mentioned directly on the book, though it can be understood from cultural context that I, reading it 30 years after it was written, did not pick up. Similarly, how do I interpret Heinlein's "Farnham's Freehold"? Stross's commentary (see his blog, but also summarized at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnham%27s_Freehold#Reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnham%27s_Freehold#Reception ) gave me some insight, or at least something to reflect upon. While I read plenty of Asimov's work, I haven't since about 1993, and don't have the same curiosity about him. But surely there are others interested in Asimov the way I am about Heinlein. Surely there are also people interested in the culture of SF fandom in the 20th century, including in some of the systemic biases against female fans. I think it's also a useful case example of how someone can be a 'feminist, decrying “male chauvinism” and arguing that women should be given wider professional opportunities' while also being a "Dirty Old Man." It's also an example of how fame can empower a harasser. This still happens, but someone 30 years dead can't harass you back on Twitter or threaten expensive defamation lawsuits. Or, for something relevant in 2021, consider the forthcoming Foundation show, where "at least three women have been cast as characters who are male in the books". How do you have a serious discussion about that change without mentioning Asimov's decisions to choose primarily men in the first place?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
angelbar 5y ago
What will happend if we do the same examination of physical things? Inventors of something like microprocessors or even carpentry tools? We need to separate the products from the behavior of the people that was makin them.

7 points by bongoman37 5y ago

Well, what do we know about the life of the article's author and what failings they have, what they have done and whom they hurt? Furthermore, how it's relevant in 2021? Asimov could have joined the Nazis and sacrifice orphans to satan and still be a Sci-Fi giant, which is based on his writings, not his behavior... We could condemn the behavior or sympathize with those affected, but that's about it. He's also 30 years dead by this point, I think the statute of limitations has passed...

dariusj18 5y ago
If only it was so easy to separate the artist from the art. In the case of a posthumous artist it is a little easier, however a capitalist society intertwines behavior and product to the point where if you support the product you are supporting the behavior that produced it.
- Ajay-p 5y ago
  Steve Jobs was a terrible person who treated people horribly. Are you willing to give up your iPhone for that? Google has invaded our privacy and sold our data to the highest bidder. Will you give your Android phone? No, of course you won't, because you live in a capitalist system. In a capitalist society it is easy to separate because you can choose to support the person, the product, or neither. In a communist system you have no choice, you must support the system, the people, and the product - which is inseparable from the government - or else. By "else" I mean imprisonment and death. I would prefer to live under a capitalist system because then at least I have the option to choose to support the maker, the product, or neither.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    It's not easy to live in the modern world without an iPhone or an Android. I know, because I chose not to have either one. It's becoming increasingly difficult to choose "neither". I expect some day I'll be forced to do so. By your description, that will be a failure of capitalism. When do you think it will happen? When I can't charge my car because all the charging stations require an app that only works on Android and iOS? When I can't easily get food because the restaurants switch to app-only sales, or smart phone payment? When it's difficult to buy a good quality local map because everyone uses in-phone GPS? When I need two-factor auth for a site that only supports a cell phone as the second auth? The list gets longer and longer.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
      Maybe you'll get an IMF-NWO-issued electronic collar ...err... 'smart-thing' for free? With your shiny new 'cyber-ID' 'physically unclonable' embedded into it.
  - dariusj18 5y ago
    Not at all relevant to my point. I was speaking very specifically of art and artists. We could get into similar issues with the morality of consumption and the role of government, but given how you reacted to my comment I can only guess it wouldn't be a very interesting discussion.
eesmith 5y ago
People write and read biographies all the time. There can be multiple biographies on the same person, each written with a different take on the subject. And every author of those biographies also has failings. But your questions seem to suggest that these biographies aren't worthy for some reason? I'm a big Heinlein fan. I find it useful to turn to some of the body of writings about Heinlein to understand why he wrote as he did. As just one example, I did not understand that the main character of "Tunnel in the Sky" was Black. This wasn't mentioned directly on the book, though it can be understood from cultural context that I, reading it 30 years after it was written, did not pick up. Similarly, how do I interpret Heinlein's "Farnham's Freehold"? Stross's commentary (see his blog, but also summarized at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnham%27s_Freehold#Reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnham%27s_Freehold#Reception ) gave me some insight, or at least something to reflect upon. While I read plenty of Asimov's work, I haven't since about 1993, and don't have the same curiosity about him. But surely there are others interested in Asimov the way I am about Heinlein. Surely there are also people interested in the culture of SF fandom in the 20th century, including in some of the systemic biases against female fans. I think it's also a useful case example of how someone can be a 'feminist, decrying “male chauvinism” and arguing that women should be given wider professional opportunities' while also being a "Dirty Old Man." It's also an example of how fame can empower a harasser. This still happens, but someone 30 years dead can't harass you back on Twitter or threaten expensive defamation lawsuits. Or, for something relevant in 2021, consider the forthcoming Foundation show, where "at least three women have been cast as characters who are male in the books". How do you have a serious discussion about that change without mentioning Asimov's decisions to choose primarily men in the first place?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

angelbar 5y ago

What will happend if we do the same examination of physical things? Inventors of something like microprocessors or even carpentry tools? We need to separate the products from the behavior of the people that was makin them.