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This is one of the most horrific articles I've read in recent times. This is absolutely disgraceful. We have to be better than this, there has got to be more t

• rubyfan 5y ago
  Congratulations on 22 years!
• dimeatree 5y ago
  > I want to know why these folks won't LEAVE shitty redneck states and head to places with more opportunity. Sometimes you just don't know any better, or you're stuck for what ever other reason. I am 100% certain if it was easier to walk away from situations, anyone really would. Regardless, congratulations on being sober for 22 years.
• sneak 5y ago
  > I want to know why these folks won't LEAVE shitty redneck states and head to places with more opportunity. Friends, family, fear.
  • adenozine 5y ago
    I mean, of course. A lot of the men in the program I went through felt the same way, they would leave after the program back to little hillside towns in TN even and they might make it a few weeks or months before relapsing and doing it all over again. It's just that element of having to stay in one place is what breaks a lot of people down in recovery. You end up back in the same situation as before, with the same places and faces, and there's this insidious thing your brain does that puts your progress out the window and reminds you exactly how you felt and thought when you were last in that situation. It's the same reason residential programs work so well, because you learn to associate the place and faces with the learned behavior and learned coping skills. Programs could improve by teaching the skills necessary to recreate the behavior in new places, that's really what sobriety is all about. How can I make it through today, no matter what happens, without walking into the liquor store? If you KNOW that you can answer that question for yourself, regardless of the place, then you're sober. Otherwise, you're on borrowed time.
    • ethbr0 5y ago
      As someone with addiction experience, a question came to mind while reading this. Horror and evil of this particular example aside. In your opinion, does staying busy help? I suppose (a) in the initial detox, (b) while relearning behaviors, and (c) after one's left a program and returned to "normal" life? On the one hand, idle hands, etc. On the other, it feels like learning to be sober while working 14 hour shifts in chicken processing probably isn't the best pattern to set up for returning to life (and a 40/wk job). Would be interested in any thoughts on the pros or cons. Also, congrats. I've family and friends adding up their own time, and know it's not easy.
      • adenozine 5y ago
        In the immediate aftermath of ceasing usage/consumption, yes. Work DOES work in that aspect. I think regularity and disciplined labor can be hugely beneficial, but if they're working for profit, then of course they should be paid their dues. Now, having said that, I can see a case for placing those funds on hold, so that they don't spend unwisely during cessation, or make bad impulse buys. I've known guys who spent their paychecks on dope right after being clean for 18+ mo in a residential. It can go any direction, that's hard to predict. As for relearning behaviors, it's sort of reflective. If I get fired and I'm sitting at the bus stop with no supervision and nowhere to be, and I feel ashamed of myself or inadequate, I mean, that's a recipe for relapse. I grew my skill in reflecting on the ability to choose DURING those events. A few days ago, my best friend from rehab was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He's terminal, I went and saw him over the weekend and he looks like walking death. I felt all those crazy feelings and it's like they were all under one big [[you don't have to drink to get through this]] annotation. I can't explain how to just do it, but THATS the skill they're relearning. That's what drugs and alcohol takes away from you until you can get it back. Normal life is honestly the easiest, but can hurt the most. In most of the people I've met and known, it revolves around relationships with their family and loved ones. That's always an individual thing. All I can say is not to rush it, and just make yourself unimaginably patient no matter what. Being busy isn't that important. It might even be less important, because you just need to give your family time to see you grow back into your previous capabilities with your new knowledge and understanding.
  • saalweachter 5y ago
    I would add "finances" to that litany.
    • eloisant 5y ago
      Yes, I don't think the kind of people living in poverty in red states can get a job with an interview over zoom with the company that will pay relocation fees.
• whiddershins 5y ago
  Man, why on earth do you have to insult entire states and millions of people who live in them in order to make your point. —edit: deleted hyperbole—
  • adenozine 5y ago
    Because I grew up in a shitty redneck state, and left to get sober, land my first six-figure job, etc. I'm not making the shit up to insult people, I feel this way because I literally did it. It was the second best decision I ever made aside from getting married. I've had thousands of conversations in Georgia, and thousands in Oregon, and I prefer the folk in Oregon. And if I was a young twenty something with a rap sheet in Oregon right now, I don't think I'd have to worry about getting sent to a chicken farm to be a slave. So. Sorry, but not for my point.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  The guy did have a prison problem. So it was trading one problem for another. There are folks who are paid to work in such plants. That he didn't get paid is a scam. But the work? It's just working in a chicken plant. Not 'the most horrific thing', unless you've never worked hard and then sure it might seem like that. So scam aside, this story was 'guy worked hard for a year'.
  • flerchin 5y ago
    As a slave. He couldn't quit, and wasn't paid.
    • pvaldes 5y ago
      Sounds a lot like doing scientific research then, poor boy... To be fair, giving fresh money to addicts trying to rehab is universally seen as a no-way move, for some reason.
    • JoeAltmaier 5y ago
      As opposed to prison? Reading my comment again, "Scam aside...".
      • tyingq 5y ago
        It is a prison. They don't go home after their shift. Calling the cell blocks "dorms" doesn't make it not a prison.
        • JoeAltmaier 5y ago
          Of course it is, obviously. No dispute there. Lets keep to the point. That's irrelevant to the bulk of the article which tries to paint 'hard work' as an atrocity of some stripe. That's what I'm calling out. Other people work in chicken plants without being prisoners. They want to. So the work is hard, admittedly, but not some kind of torture. Hey, the prisoners admit that freely by their actions. The article mentions the guards 'threaten' them with return to prison if they don't work. So they choose to work instead of returning to prison. It's a conscious choice, and clearly they prefer the chicken farm.
• wavefunction 5y ago
  It's expensive to move to a brand new place and one of the only things many poor people have to rely on is their local network of family and friends.
  • ethbr0 5y ago
    This. It takes a special kind of person to land in a new town, make connections, and find a good job. Especially without skills. Few people are that person.
  • dharmab 5y ago
    I've had friends who had to choose between moving away and making some more money and staying where they grew up and making less with a strong support network. In most cases (i.e. unless they are changing industries after completing an education/training/career milestone) the support network reduced their expenses more than the extra wages would have been.
• mistermann 5y ago
  > I want to know why these folks won't LEAVE shitty redneck states and head to places with more opportunity. The human mind may be the least well understood thing out there...an even better question might be: why do people expect that other people should behave in a highly logical manner, when they themselves don't?
• kevmo 5y ago
  Prison slavery exists in New York and California, it's not just "redneck" states.
• lelanthran 5y ago
  > This guy didn't even have an addiction problem, I'm almost certain the judge is getting some sort of incentive to punish these people with this program. Maybe. After reading the entire article, I think that it's a little more complex. The convict gets the option of jail or chicken farm. After choosing the chicken farm, the convict still has the option of doing the jail time instead. The reason they work so hard, endure the horrific conditions and do so without pay is because they still feel that it is better than jail. The problem arises when Judges (who, like you said, may have an incentive to provide slaves) start weighting the jail option heavier in order to promote the chicken farm option; for example, offer 5 years in jail or two years in slavery. Another problem with biased Judges is that they may start convicting based on the labour requirements, not on the criminal intent, element and other factors. Anyone here who also read The Talisman (Stephen King, Peter Straub)? Similar thing there.
  • TeMPOraL 5y ago
    > The reason they work so hard, endure the horrific conditions and do so without pay is because they still feel that it is better than jail. There may be sunk cost issue involved here as well: as I understand the article, whether you drop out of the "rehab" program in the first month or last month of your planned stay, you're going to prison for the full time. So the longer you stay in the program, the stronger your incentive to stay until the end.
    • lelanthran 5y ago
      That's why I said it is complex.
    • ethbr0 5y ago
      Furthermore, not to discount that the program is literally feeding and preaching to these people. So, aside from the power disparity (send them back to jail on a whim), there's an omnipresent opportunity to propagandize whatever you want. And I'm pretty sure CAAIR isn't spending a lot of time talking to people about how chicken processing is hard, backbreaking, unsafe work, and prison is a viable option.
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• liveoneggs 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
• throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >I want to know why these folks won't LEAVE shitty redneck states and head to places with more opportunity They're poor, not stupid. Moving to a blue state doesn't magically make you richer and opportunity doesn't mean anything unless there's a chance you can capitalize on it. Unless you have a skill or trait that somehow gives you a leg up over the local poors you're destined to be just as poor when you get there. And if you do have some path upward you may as well work that path locally with the benefit of your support network. If you're young, a hard worker and paying into your support network a lot more than you're getting out and don't have a lot of time/effort/money sunk into your support network yet than a bus ticket might be a good idea (and young people often do move long distances). If you're supporting a family then the better bennies might be worth it but if you're supporting a family moving away from your support network without taking several steps backwards in terms of stability is going to be nigh on impossible. One of the biggest things that keeps people poor is an inability to have a financial buffer for unplanned expenses. And everyone knows that relocating is fraught with high risk of those kinds of expenses. If the destination has a higher cost of living all the risks are magnified.
  • macintux 5y ago
    Speaking as someone who has been helping a friend stay afloat for years now, you’re absolutely correct. “Just move” is a recurring theme in HN comments whenever this type of story pops up, which seems to be a reflection of the misconception that people in poverty are to blame for failing to have enough initiative to get out.
• bodge5000 5y ago
  > I want to know why these folks won't LEAVE shitty redneck states and head to places with more opportunity I'm not american, nor do I know much about the states, but at a guess I'd say it comes down to 3 things: 1. Cost of living (I could be wrong, but I imagine these states are cheaper to live in, and moving is often a massive expense in itself) 2. Lack of applicable skills (if you grew up in an area which produces mainly farmers for example, and you move to an area which produces mainly programmers, you're going to have a tough time finding work) 3. Culture (For you these may be "shitty redneck states", but I wouldnt find it suprising at all if the people that live there consider the bigger liberal states the shitty ones. Again US culture isn't a strong point for me so this is just a guess).
  • nicbou 5y ago
    The cost of moving is not negligible. I help people move to Germany. It's tough to explain how much savings you need to cover the flight, rent, deposit etc. at least a month before you see a paycheck.
  • ethbr0 5y ago
    Culture and family are strong. Say what you want about any place, but it's home to someone. And their kin. Not everyone's a traveller.
  • Igelau 5y ago
    > Cost of living This is the big one. I live in a major metropolitan area in a swing state, and my jaw drops whenever I see how low the costs for property, rent, housework, materials, and gasoline are in traditionally red states.
    • mrtranscendence 5y ago
      Yeah, I'd pay $1M for the same house in suburban SF that I paid $250K for in suburban Cincinnati. Even if I worked for a FAANG company my salary wouldn't go up four times. Were I to decide to move to a very blue area my standard of living could drop noticeably.
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• deleted 5y ago
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• burlesona 5y ago
  Have you seen the cost of housing in the blue states? Where are the booming blue collar job bases to support people without high-end skills and education?
• BurningFrog 5y ago
  > I want to know why these folks won't LEAVE shitty redneck states and head to places with more opportunity. I know of two reasons. 1. The "blue states" have, quite deliberately, stopped building housing. This closes a traditional way out of rural poverty, and I think/speculate it's a major driver behind the opioid crisis. 2. The book "Dignity" by Chris Arnade documents the life of dirt poor America. I strongly recommend it. It talks a lot about how many people belong somewhere, and won't move because of that. https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/dp/0525534733 https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/...
  • lupire 5y ago
    Nice places to live stop building housing, as they get wealthy property owners who are sma c conservative/aristocratic (which is a mix of Democrat and Republicans). It's a local effect not a state effect.
    • michaelmrose 5y ago
      A study showed that being a property owner was a far better predictor of opposition to building housing developments than political affiliation. In America we are more united in our desire to protect our property values than we are with our party.
• torstenvl 5y ago
  Folks don't leave shitty redneck places because the alternative is to live with people who call them shitty rednecks / deplorables / etc.
• datavirtue 5y ago
  Hmmm...rehab is tough. Are you expecting someone to show up, keep their money, not work, and come and go as they please? If that is the case then you fail at the first step. People who are going to rehab need their entire world consumed with work on a strict schedule. You ever try helping an opioid addict? They immediately try running off to buy drugs in any way they can. They are consumed with chasing the next high and will lie and steal left and right to get it. Family, friends, it doesn't matter. You can put them up, feed them, give them a job, build them a house on your property, involve them in their nieces and nephews lives, and they still sneak off and go on a bender and hide drugs in your house. The fiascos have no bounds. People with normal lives seeing the conditions of a rehab program? They are merely appalled by reality. Find something else to get outraged by.
  • mrtranscendence 5y ago
    I've unfortunately known the kind of person you describe*, I've also known people with drug problems who would not have been well served by having their "entire world consumed with work on a strict schedule". There's a reason most rehabilitation centers don't focus on that kind of treatment -- it's arguably cruel and absolutely not evidence-based. * My fiancee's brother was a nasty piece of work. My "favorite" thing he did was lie for months to their father that he had polycystic kidney disease, a heritable disease which had killed their mother. He just kept pulling money out of their father for "treatments" only for it all to be a ruse. I remember Mike (the dad) being in tears because his son was so close to dying. Ugh, it makes me feel dirty just thinking about it. Edit: although he died a few years later, it was due largely to his not taking care of himself (e.g. untreated diabetes that had already taken his foot). No kidney disease to be seen. And none for my fiancee, knock on wood.
    • lupire 5y ago
      Do you have any evidence about what does work?
  • michaelmrose 5y ago
    It's notable that in this article the individual they followed wasn't addicted to anything at the start. He fell behind on paying fines and lost his privilege of probation. The state he is living it using hard labor as a diversion from actually going to prison for potentially longer duration than their term of slavery in a chicken plant. It's not the all consuming nature of the labor that is the issue. The issue is that they actually aren't doing anything whatsoever to help anyone. It's a program to exploit the governments offer of free labor in an environment that first exploits workers and then often destroys them. The individual involved who started with no addiction at all left with a pain pill addition due to permanent spinal damage in unsafe conditions. It's a good article and worth reading.
• handrous 5y ago
  > I want to know why these folks won't LEAVE shitty redneck states and head to places with more opportunity. Being poor near family and friends is about 100x better than being poor away from them. That network can provide tens of thousands of dollars (if you had to pay strangers for it) per year in services and assistance.