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> “European culture is slightly different: most people consider a startup failure as something bad that you drag along for the rest of your career.” I hear thi

> “European culture is slightly different: most people consider a startup failure as something bad that you drag along for the rest of your career.” I hear this over and over, but in my 20 years of living in Europe, I haven’t found this to be the case. Perhaps it is only in some European countries or cultures?

agd 5y ago
Certainly not the case in the UK from my experience.
ToJans 5y ago
We're probably about the same age, so let me ask you this: have you ever heard or seen a European person (who failed a business he or she depended on) carrying his or her failure like a badge of honor? In my experience with job interviews (from both sides of the table) people tend to be ashamed, or they assume you should be ashamed about it. As for me personally, I like sharing both my failures and my successes, and receive a lot of positive feedback about this. But when I ask them to do the same, I usually get a "I wouldn't want to ruin my reputation.". YMMV.
- stevoski 5y ago
  > We're probably about the same age, so let me ask you this: have you ever heard or seen a European person (who failed a business he or she depended on) carrying his or her failure like a badge of honor? Yes, I have.
  - ToJans 5y ago
    Ok; point taken. Would you tend to agree that the majority is or expects you to be ashamed about it, or is that not what you experience?
    - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
      The majority of them have experienced failure, just like everybody else. What they are (require to be) ashamed of is tricking the system or running illegal businesses that lead to the aforementioned failure.
      - filoleg 5y ago
        > What they are (require to be) ashamed of is tricking the system or running illegal businesses that lead to the aforementioned failure. Are you trying to say that most startup failures are due to their illegal nature? If that's the case for majority of failed startups in Europe that you are familiar with, that's kind of telling (whether it is in regards to startups in Europe in general or just the European startups that you are personally familiar with, that's a different question).
        peoplefromibiza 5y ago
        No, you got it completely backwards. I'm trying to say that people are not ashamed of failure in Europe and that the only kind of failure that is a shame is using illegal/unethical tactics. In several European countries what Uber and Airbnb did to local markets is considered shameful. Also the term disruption is considered a bad thing. To put it in more simple terms for you: people are more important than profit. That's why, generally speaking, quality of life is better than US average, despite lower average salaries. Also Europe is not a monolith, so whoever talks about Europe as a single entity is probably wrong. Barcelona, for example, has a very active startup scene and it's 10 times better than any city in the US. There is also a tendency is the US to consider a success becoming a monopolist or a unicorn, that's not what many startups here aim for. There is also a huge language barrier, Americans usually show no or little interest foe anything that is not in English. It's highly probable you don't have frequent contacts with people speaking (only or mainly) French, Spanish, Danish, Hungarian, Italian , German, Dutch etc. etc. but most Europeans do or know someone that can work as a trait d'union. there are many startups working in the green economy here that are doing great things, by working together instead of fighting each other. Fintech is also better in Europe than in US.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  I am that European. There are 513 million people in Europe spread over 28 countries, excluding Russia. Have you met all of them? In my 25 years of experience in the field, the opposite is true.
tluyben2 5y ago
Not my experience either; I see it usually met with 'at least they tried while I did nothing'. But may depend where in the EU you ask.
libertine 5y ago
Well the question that might be cynical is: do they actually mean it? Like saying, "oh at least you tried!"/"good for you!"/"you learning something right!"?, this is something I get. No one ever asked, "What went wrong, what went right?" / "What did you learn, what would you do differently?" / "Next time you'll try something hit me up!" / "I have something I'm working on, check this out, are you interested?" / "We should talk more about this" You may say, those are different types of persons, one shows support the other shows curiosity and drive - but in the case of the latter they actually care and are "invested" in your failure as well to the point they'll give up some of their time and attention to ask about it, so they can learn something from your experience as well. What we lack in Europe aren't patting on the back, it's actually to value the experience of failure. It's "easy" to say nice words.
- volta83 5y ago
  +1. Having worked at both, the main difference between SV and Europe is "share your failures so that everybody can learn" vs "downplay your failures so that you look better".
  - moonchrome 5y ago
    Maybe related but as a contractor I've noticed that working with EU clients there's so much posturing, pretend professionalism, suit and tie kind of guys throwing around titles, red tape etc. US clients are way more casual and to the point.
Mvandenbergh 5y ago
Definitely not true in the UK, definitely not true in The Netherlands. Not true among my Paris based friends, had dinner with some of the latter which included someone who was on their third startup and a few Sciences Po / X types who have the kinds of jobs you would expect and the latter were extremely interested in the what the former was up to and how the startup ecosystem worked. Definitely not a sense that they thought having tried and failed to start a tech company was somehow a bad mark - and realistically grande école types tend to be very status conscious so would have picked it up if it was there. I can't speak to what older people, people outside of Paris would think of it. I would guess much more conservative.

agd 5y ago

Certainly not the case in the UK from my experience.

ToJans 5y ago

We're probably about the same age, so let me ask you this: have you ever heard or seen a European person (who failed a business he or she depended on) carrying his or her failure like a badge of honor? In my experience with job interviews (from both sides of the table) people tend to be ashamed, or they assume you should be ashamed about it. As for me personally, I like sharing both my failures and my successes, and receive a lot of positive feedback about this. But when I ask them to do the same, I usually get a "I wouldn't want to ruin my reputation.". YMMV.

stevoski 5y ago
> We're probably about the same age, so let me ask you this: have you ever heard or seen a European person (who failed a business he or she depended on) carrying his or her failure like a badge of honor? Yes, I have.
- ToJans 5y ago
  Ok; point taken. Would you tend to agree that the majority is or expects you to be ashamed about it, or is that not what you experience?
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    The majority of them have experienced failure, just like everybody else. What they are (require to be) ashamed of is tricking the system or running illegal businesses that lead to the aforementioned failure.
    - filoleg 5y ago
      > What they are (require to be) ashamed of is tricking the system or running illegal businesses that lead to the aforementioned failure. Are you trying to say that most startup failures are due to their illegal nature? If that's the case for majority of failed startups in Europe that you are familiar with, that's kind of telling (whether it is in regards to startups in Europe in general or just the European startups that you are personally familiar with, that's a different question).
      - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
        No, you got it completely backwards. I'm trying to say that people are not ashamed of failure in Europe and that the only kind of failure that is a shame is using illegal/unethical tactics. In several European countries what Uber and Airbnb did to local markets is considered shameful. Also the term disruption is considered a bad thing. To put it in more simple terms for you: people are more important than profit. That's why, generally speaking, quality of life is better than US average, despite lower average salaries. Also Europe is not a monolith, so whoever talks about Europe as a single entity is probably wrong. Barcelona, for example, has a very active startup scene and it's 10 times better than any city in the US. There is also a tendency is the US to consider a success becoming a monopolist or a unicorn, that's not what many startups here aim for. There is also a huge language barrier, Americans usually show no or little interest foe anything that is not in English. It's highly probable you don't have frequent contacts with people speaking (only or mainly) French, Spanish, Danish, Hungarian, Italian , German, Dutch etc. etc. but most Europeans do or know someone that can work as a trait d'union. there are many startups working in the green economy here that are doing great things, by working together instead of fighting each other. Fintech is also better in Europe than in US.
peoplefromibiza 5y ago
I am that European. There are 513 million people in Europe spread over 28 countries, excluding Russia. Have you met all of them? In my 25 years of experience in the field, the opposite is true.

tluyben2 5y ago

Not my experience either; I see it usually met with 'at least they tried while I did nothing'. But may depend where in the EU you ask.

libertine 5y ago

Well the question that might be cynical is: do they actually mean it? Like saying, "oh at least you tried!"/"good for you!"/"you learning something right!"?, this is something I get. No one ever asked, "What went wrong, what went right?" / "What did you learn, what would you do differently?" / "Next time you'll try something hit me up!" / "I have something I'm working on, check this out, are you interested?" / "We should talk more about this" You may say, those are different types of persons, one shows support the other shows curiosity and drive - but in the case of the latter they actually care and are "invested" in your failure as well to the point they'll give up some of their time and attention to ask about it, so they can learn something from your experience as well. What we lack in Europe aren't patting on the back, it's actually to value the experience of failure. It's "easy" to say nice words.

volta83 5y ago
+1. Having worked at both, the main difference between SV and Europe is "share your failures so that everybody can learn" vs "downplay your failures so that you look better".
- moonchrome 5y ago
  Maybe related but as a contractor I've noticed that working with EU clients there's so much posturing, pretend professionalism, suit and tie kind of guys throwing around titles, red tape etc. US clients are way more casual and to the point.

Mvandenbergh 5y ago

Definitely not true in the UK, definitely not true in The Netherlands. Not true among my Paris based friends, had dinner with some of the latter which included someone who was on their third startup and a few Sciences Po / X types who have the kinds of jobs you would expect and the latter were extremely interested in the what the former was up to and how the startup ecosystem worked. Definitely not a sense that they thought having tried and failed to start a tech company was somehow a bad mark - and realistically grande école types tend to be very status conscious so would have picked it up if it was there. I can't speak to what older people, people outside of Paris would think of it. I would guess much more conservative.