4 ms·

> Who the hell knows? The manual. I see what you’re saying, Gmail is painful to use for this exact reason. I’d argue it’s fine on cars though for a few reason

by q-rews 5y ago

> Who the hell knows? The manual. I see what you’re saying, Gmail is painful to use for this exact reason. I’d argue it’s fine on cars though for a few reasons: - there probably aren’t that many icons to be aware of in a car - cars are generally owned for a long time, so learning 2 new icons every 5-10 years is not much to ask - cost-cutting on I18n: the snowflake could be AC in English but “airflugencoldensteiner” in some other language. It doesn’t scale and it can’t be sold across borders without looking out of place.

WalterBright 5y ago
> The manual. Right, while hurtling down the freeway I can always dig the 500 page manual out and dig through it. Note that I can't use the index to find those icons, because icons have no alphabetic order. Like I said, going backwards 2000 years. > airflugencoldensteiner So just use AC. You can even look it up in the index. > It doesn’t scale and Yah, show it to an illiterate desert dweller, and ask them what they make of it. > it can’t be sold across borders without looking out of place. Of course it can be. Whatcha gonna do, translate that entire 500 page manual into hieroglyphs? Isn't it hilarious that now an entire generation of adults has never used a phone that looks like the typical phone icon? The phone icon on my iphone looks like a phone from the 1960's. However, "PHONE" has remained constant.
- aqsalose 5y ago
  >Right, while hurtling down the freeway I can always dig the 500 page manual out and dig through it. Note that I can't use the index to find those icons, because icons have no alphabetic order. Like I said, going backwards 2000 years. You can't also look at index to decipher what it means to see "red light bulb that is 'on' over two light bulbs that are 'off'" or "human figure walking over piano keyboard inside a white triangle which is inside a blue square" when you are driving, you are supposed to get familiar with those symbols before get in the car. Typical car has barely a dozen or two pictograms, and any car is a machine than can easily kill and maim. It would be advisable to look at the manual before one starts driving. Of course, it would advisable if those symbols were also standardized like traffic signs. I actually agree with you about Unicode mission creep, but it is better not get overboard with pictograms that have nothing to with Unicode.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    My old car has controls labeled "defrost", "heat", "cold". I never even had a manual for it. US roads still have plenty of signs in English, like "Speed Limit", "Stop", "Yield", "Road Construction", "Detour", "No Turn On Red", etc. Nobody has any trouble understanding them.
    - JadeNB 5y ago
      > US roads still have plenty of signs in English, like "Speed Limit", "Stop", "Yield", "Road Construction", "Detour", "No Turn On Red", etc. Nobody has any trouble understanding them. I strongly suspect that "Nobody has any trouble understanding them" is not true. While I agree with you that iconitis can go overboard, I think pretending that words are universally clearer—in the sense of every place, but also for everyone, not just you—is an exaggeration.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        > I strongly suspect that "Nobody has any trouble understanding them" is not true. This sort of comment is inevitable. I could say "everyone likes ice cream" and I'd get a comment saying they know someone who doesn't like ice cream. I could say "people have two legs" and there's be comment about someone who was born with one leg.
        JadeNB 5y ago
        > This sort of comment is inevitable. I could say "everyone likes ice cream" and I'd get a comment saying they know someone who doesn't like ice cream. I could say "people have two legs" and there's be comment about someone who was born with one leg. It seems to me that you prove a point against your own argument here. If you said "people have two legs" in an anatomy class, then that would be the wrong place to object. If you said "people have two legs" as an argument against installing wheelchair ramps, then I think that would be the right place to object that some people don't. Given your other comments in this thread, your statement that "Nobody has any trouble understanding them" seemed to be a statement to be taken seriously if perhaps not completely literally, rather than being a casual statement of the type clearly to be understood as loaded down with qualifiers like "on average, in predominantly English-speaking in the US …". I took your argument to be against using icons, even in situations where they might allow non-English speakers equal access to crucial information, and it seems to me to be worth pointing out that universally quantified statements in that setting not only are not true in the most technical sense, but are even likely to be harmful if used to guide policy and decisions.
- q-rews 5y ago
  > So just use AC. You can even look it up in the index. No, you “can” not, you “must” look it up. I know what a sun is, I don’t know what HO means, I will have to look it up. You’re looking at the problem as if there was no language other than english. Growing up in a non anglophone country I had to deal with plenty of english-only interfaces that didn’t need to be, like ON/OFF. I agree that bird icons are hard to decipher, but usually that’s not the case for common situations, like for the play, on, off buttons.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > plenty of english-only interfaces that didn’t need to be, like ON/OFF. Is it really faster to learn what "|" means than "ON"? > I had to deal with And now you're fluent in English, while learning "|" was useful only for a switch. Again, nobody has to learn English in order to know what a handful of words like "ON" mean. You don't even need to learn the alphabet.

by q-rews 5y ago

WalterBright 5y ago

> The manual. Right, while hurtling down the freeway I can always dig the 500 page manual out and dig through it. Note that I can't use the index to find those icons, because icons have no alphabetic order. Like I said, going backwards 2000 years. > airflugencoldensteiner So just use AC. You can even look it up in the index. > It doesn’t scale and Yah, show it to an illiterate desert dweller, and ask them what they make of it. > it can’t be sold across borders without looking out of place. Of course it can be. Whatcha gonna do, translate that entire 500 page manual into hieroglyphs? Isn't it hilarious that now an entire generation of adults has never used a phone that looks like the typical phone icon? The phone icon on my iphone looks like a phone from the 1960's. However, "PHONE" has remained constant.

aqsalose 5y ago
>Right, while hurtling down the freeway I can always dig the 500 page manual out and dig through it. Note that I can't use the index to find those icons, because icons have no alphabetic order. Like I said, going backwards 2000 years. You can't also look at index to decipher what it means to see "red light bulb that is 'on' over two light bulbs that are 'off'" or "human figure walking over piano keyboard inside a white triangle which is inside a blue square" when you are driving, you are supposed to get familiar with those symbols before get in the car. Typical car has barely a dozen or two pictograms, and any car is a machine than can easily kill and maim. It would be advisable to look at the manual before one starts driving. Of course, it would advisable if those symbols were also standardized like traffic signs. I actually agree with you about Unicode mission creep, but it is better not get overboard with pictograms that have nothing to with Unicode.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  My old car has controls labeled "defrost", "heat", "cold". I never even had a manual for it. US roads still have plenty of signs in English, like "Speed Limit", "Stop", "Yield", "Road Construction", "Detour", "No Turn On Red", etc. Nobody has any trouble understanding them.
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    > US roads still have plenty of signs in English, like "Speed Limit", "Stop", "Yield", "Road Construction", "Detour", "No Turn On Red", etc. Nobody has any trouble understanding them. I strongly suspect that "Nobody has any trouble understanding them" is not true. While I agree with you that iconitis can go overboard, I think pretending that words are universally clearer—in the sense of every place, but also for everyone, not just you—is an exaggeration.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      > I strongly suspect that "Nobody has any trouble understanding them" is not true. This sort of comment is inevitable. I could say "everyone likes ice cream" and I'd get a comment saying they know someone who doesn't like ice cream. I could say "people have two legs" and there's be comment about someone who was born with one leg.
      - JadeNB 5y ago
        > This sort of comment is inevitable. I could say "everyone likes ice cream" and I'd get a comment saying they know someone who doesn't like ice cream. I could say "people have two legs" and there's be comment about someone who was born with one leg. It seems to me that you prove a point against your own argument here. If you said "people have two legs" in an anatomy class, then that would be the wrong place to object. If you said "people have two legs" as an argument against installing wheelchair ramps, then I think that would be the right place to object that some people don't. Given your other comments in this thread, your statement that "Nobody has any trouble understanding them" seemed to be a statement to be taken seriously if perhaps not completely literally, rather than being a casual statement of the type clearly to be understood as loaded down with qualifiers like "on average, in predominantly English-speaking in the US …". I took your argument to be against using icons, even in situations where they might allow non-English speakers equal access to crucial information, and it seems to me to be worth pointing out that universally quantified statements in that setting not only are not true in the most technical sense, but are even likely to be harmful if used to guide policy and decisions.
q-rews 5y ago
> So just use AC. You can even look it up in the index. No, you “can” not, you “must” look it up. I know what a sun is, I don’t know what HO means, I will have to look it up. You’re looking at the problem as if there was no language other than english. Growing up in a non anglophone country I had to deal with plenty of english-only interfaces that didn’t need to be, like ON/OFF. I agree that bird icons are hard to decipher, but usually that’s not the case for common situations, like for the play, on, off buttons.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > plenty of english-only interfaces that didn’t need to be, like ON/OFF. Is it really faster to learn what "|" means than "ON"? > I had to deal with And now you're fluent in English, while learning "|" was useful only for a switch. Again, nobody has to learn English in order to know what a handful of words like "ON" mean. You don't even need to learn the alphabet.