4 ms·

There’s something that is genuinely confusing for me in this argument. Maybe you can help me understand better. If you’re a truly high skilled worker, then US

There’s something that is genuinely confusing for me in this argument. Maybe you can help me understand better. If you’re a truly high skilled worker, then US is not the only place that you can have a good life in therefore if you’re underpaid, you go somewhere else. On the other hand if your skill is not on par, then why would the companies go through the trouble of H1B and hire you while they can hire low skilled domestic labor with lower wage demand (not implying that domestic labor is low skilled, just pointing out that it’s available)

harpratap 5y ago
1. For a couple of decades, US was the only country paying high salaries. Why would you go through the entire process of immigration if you still end up being middle class in a foreign country? Upper middle class or higher is more attractive 2. Immigration is a Network effect. You would prefer a country where you already have acquaintances, friends or family over starting your social life from scratch. 3. Soft power plays a huge role. In many societies being able to go to US has much higher prestige than say Germany, Netherlands or Japan. So many people don't see immigrating to these countries as an actual upgrade in social status back home even if the life might be better
- jltsiren 5y ago
  1. People who stay in their home countries often make the salary argument, but it's not as common among those who actually emigrate. The availability of interesting jobs is a more likely reason for high-skilled immigrants. For example, the UK used to be a popular immigration destination for EU citizens before Brexit, even though the standard of living was often lower than in their home countries. 2. The network effect is more important for low-skilled immigrants and those planning to make the destination country their new home. High-skilled immigrants typically have an expat mentality. They leave the people they know behind and move to a new place for a specific opportunity. Their country of residence is not their home but a place they happen to be living in at the moment. They are also prepared to move again, should new opportunities arise. 3. The prestige argument is also more important for low-skilled immigrants. For high-skilled immigrants, a more likely reaction is your friends wondering how you can put up with the bureaucratic BS of living as an immigrant in the US. (As an example, because H-1B workers are formally visitors instead of immigrants, most of them are currently unable to visit their friends and family in their home countries.)
  - harpratap 5y ago
    Maybe we have different definitions of what "High skilled" truly means. All the "High skilled" people I know (those who actually qualified and got the High skilled visas in various developed countries) are influenced by the 3 points I wrote above. Also you are confusing immigrant (H1B is an immigration visa unlike L1) with emigrant, the mentality is very different between the two. High skilled immigrant != Emigrant
    - jltsiren 5y ago
      I'm in the highly skilled category myself, and half the people I interact with have been there at one point or another. From what I have seen, the kind of person who is willing to relocate to a new country for a job opportunity is likely to do so again, should a better opportunity arise. Many people I know have worked for a few years in the US, but most of them have left for better opportunities elsewhere. And once they grow older, the "better opportunities" are more likely to involve living closer to friends and family or a good environment for raising kids than higher salaries. The immigrant/emigrant question is a matter of perspective. An immigrant to one country is an emigrant from another. H-1B is a dual-purpose non-immigrant visa. When you have obtained/extended your H-1B status and are applying for the entry visa required for international travel, you are required to provide a permanent address outside the US. Once you enter the country, the immigration officials really don't like it if you claim you are living in the US. And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks.
      - harpratap 5y ago
        > the kind of person who is willing to relocate to a new country for a job opportunity I think herein lies the crux of difference in our opinions. Most immigrants I know don't immigrate just for mere job opportunity, they go in with the intention of changing their lives and settle forever. They are not treating this like a Working Holiday Visa > And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks. F1 visa is technically a non-immigrant visa and yet they are allowed entry. The entry ban has nothing to do with whether your visa is immigrant or not
abrokenpipe 5y ago
I think the argument that he is making is that work visas are used to increase the labor pool (creating a "buyers market" for companies that are hiring). If a company cant find anyone willing to accept their offer then they need to improve the compensation and working environment... or they could hire a worker from the visa pool, thus suppressing wages, benefits, WLB, etc... It's labor-economics 101. It doesn't matter what the job is, if you pay enough then someone will take the job (and become qualified if needed). ex: I'd scrub the shit out of sewage pipes with a toothbrush if you paid me enough, but most companies would just say that there is a "skilled labor shortage".
- geraneum 5y ago
  Thanks for the explanation. This description is easy to grasp and makes sense. I tried to look for some numbers following your description and it seems like that the H1B wages are not lower than local market in average according to this Glassdoor study [0]. After reading it I was curious to see what’s the ratio of H1B for tech jobs (which is probably dominating the Glassdoor study) and apparently it’s the majority according to this Pew Research study [1]. [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/ https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/ [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/key-facts-about-the-u-s-h-1b-visa-program/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/key-facts-a...

harpratap 5y ago

1. For a couple of decades, US was the only country paying high salaries. Why would you go through the entire process of immigration if you still end up being middle class in a foreign country? Upper middle class or higher is more attractive 2. Immigration is a Network effect. You would prefer a country where you already have acquaintances, friends or family over starting your social life from scratch. 3. Soft power plays a huge role. In many societies being able to go to US has much higher prestige than say Germany, Netherlands or Japan. So many people don't see immigrating to these countries as an actual upgrade in social status back home even if the life might be better

jltsiren 5y ago
1. People who stay in their home countries often make the salary argument, but it's not as common among those who actually emigrate. The availability of interesting jobs is a more likely reason for high-skilled immigrants. For example, the UK used to be a popular immigration destination for EU citizens before Brexit, even though the standard of living was often lower than in their home countries. 2. The network effect is more important for low-skilled immigrants and those planning to make the destination country their new home. High-skilled immigrants typically have an expat mentality. They leave the people they know behind and move to a new place for a specific opportunity. Their country of residence is not their home but a place they happen to be living in at the moment. They are also prepared to move again, should new opportunities arise. 3. The prestige argument is also more important for low-skilled immigrants. For high-skilled immigrants, a more likely reaction is your friends wondering how you can put up with the bureaucratic BS of living as an immigrant in the US. (As an example, because H-1B workers are formally visitors instead of immigrants, most of them are currently unable to visit their friends and family in their home countries.)
- harpratap 5y ago
  Maybe we have different definitions of what "High skilled" truly means. All the "High skilled" people I know (those who actually qualified and got the High skilled visas in various developed countries) are influenced by the 3 points I wrote above. Also you are confusing immigrant (H1B is an immigration visa unlike L1) with emigrant, the mentality is very different between the two. High skilled immigrant != Emigrant
  - jltsiren 5y ago
    I'm in the highly skilled category myself, and half the people I interact with have been there at one point or another. From what I have seen, the kind of person who is willing to relocate to a new country for a job opportunity is likely to do so again, should a better opportunity arise. Many people I know have worked for a few years in the US, but most of them have left for better opportunities elsewhere. And once they grow older, the "better opportunities" are more likely to involve living closer to friends and family or a good environment for raising kids than higher salaries. The immigrant/emigrant question is a matter of perspective. An immigrant to one country is an emigrant from another. H-1B is a dual-purpose non-immigrant visa. When you have obtained/extended your H-1B status and are applying for the entry visa required for international travel, you are required to provide a permanent address outside the US. Once you enter the country, the immigration officials really don't like it if you claim you are living in the US. And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks.
    - harpratap 5y ago
      > the kind of person who is willing to relocate to a new country for a job opportunity I think herein lies the crux of difference in our opinions. Most immigrants I know don't immigrate just for mere job opportunity, they go in with the intention of changing their lives and settle forever. They are not treating this like a Working Holiday Visa > And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks. F1 visa is technically a non-immigrant visa and yet they are allowed entry. The entry ban has nothing to do with whether your visa is immigrant or not

abrokenpipe 5y ago

I think the argument that he is making is that work visas are used to increase the labor pool (creating a "buyers market" for companies that are hiring). If a company cant find anyone willing to accept their offer then they need to improve the compensation and working environment... or they could hire a worker from the visa pool, thus suppressing wages, benefits, WLB, etc... It's labor-economics 101. It doesn't matter what the job is, if you pay enough then someone will take the job (and become qualified if needed). ex: I'd scrub the shit out of sewage pipes with a toothbrush if you paid me enough, but most companies would just say that there is a "skilled labor shortage".

geraneum 5y ago
Thanks for the explanation. This description is easy to grasp and makes sense. I tried to look for some numbers following your description and it seems like that the H1B wages are not lower than local market in average according to this Glassdoor study [0]. After reading it I was curious to see what’s the ratio of H1B for tech jobs (which is probably dominating the Glassdoor study) and apparently it’s the majority according to this Pew Research study [1]. [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/ https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/ [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/key-facts-about-the-u-s-h-1b-visa-program/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/key-facts-a...