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The question left unanswered: what are their objectives and what do they need to achieve them? Employee unions are a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

The question left unanswered: what are their objectives and what do they need to achieve them? Employee unions are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Apple employees are paid well and their benefits and working conditions are decent. In my view, the problem is the increasingly authoritarian management regime that governs where and how they work. A traditional union won't help address that problem.

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vineyardmike 5y ago
It doesn't seem to be a union. I think the term "organizing" is more of a general sense - employees are organizing to speak up collectively against the employer's behavior. > Apple employee organizing took another step this morning with the launch of a website called AppleToo. The goal is to collect stories from workers at all levels of the organization who’ve experienced harassment or discrimination. https://appletoo.us https://appletoo.us They seem to have the goal of collective bargaining for change, but it doesn't seem to be "unionizing"
- Doxin 5y ago
  > employees are organizing to speak up collectively against the employer's behavior. Isn't that exactly what a union is? duckduckgo defines an union as "A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit." which seems to match what's going on here.
microtherion 5y ago
I don't know about "increasingly". Apple has always been a fairly authoritarian place to work at, especially in regulating outside activities. Some aspects, like conference publications, have become decidedly LESS authoritarian in recent years. And you would not believe how many rules went into the "casual" dress code for WWDC presenters in the Steve Jobs years… Many of the problems of the working conditions (and I agree that overall, Apple is a very nice place to work), would, in my opinion, be quite well suited to traditional union representation.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  What were those rules? No suits?
  - microtherion 5y ago
    Hah! As I remember, it had to be slacks (no jeans) in a prescribed range of colors, shoes (no sneakers, no sandals) in a prescribed range of colors, combined with a somewhat ungainly T-shirt. There may have been more rules. For a company whose dress code for engineers ordinarily was more along the lines of "we prefer that genitals be covered when in public", it was rather restrictive.
    - Dracophoenix 5y ago
      Doesn't seem to have to changed much these past few conferences either. Did you ever have present yourself? Was there a dress code for MacWorld way back when?
      - microtherion 5y ago
        The 2019 dress code was definitely more relaxed, if you look here, for instance: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/408/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/408/ Shirts, worn tucked or untucked, jeans. Compare with the 2001 dress code: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX3gE8DMjR4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX3gE8DMjR4 I presented a number of times, but not in the last couple of years.
- chmaynard 5y ago
  Here's an example of what I had in mind. I was working at Apple during the time when the Infinite Loop campus was designed. I recall that the Apple execs treated the R&D engineers as equal stakeholders in the design of the working spaces. I had the pleasure of working in IL-3 for six years and it was the best office environment I have ever seen anywhere -- spacious, quiet private offices with numerous comfortable common spaces for conversations and informal meetings. Apparently the interior design of the Apple Park headquarters was handled quite differently. Many employees were saddened when they experienced the working environment there, and some even refused to move in.
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vineyardmike 5y ago

It doesn't seem to be a union. I think the term "organizing" is more of a general sense - employees are organizing to speak up collectively against the employer's behavior. > Apple employee organizing took another step this morning with the launch of a website called AppleToo. The goal is to collect stories from workers at all levels of the organization who’ve experienced harassment or discrimination. https://appletoo.us https://appletoo.us They seem to have the goal of collective bargaining for change, but it doesn't seem to be "unionizing"

Doxin 5y ago
> employees are organizing to speak up collectively against the employer's behavior. Isn't that exactly what a union is? duckduckgo defines an union as "A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit." which seems to match what's going on here.

microtherion 5y ago

I don't know about "increasingly". Apple has always been a fairly authoritarian place to work at, especially in regulating outside activities. Some aspects, like conference publications, have become decidedly LESS authoritarian in recent years. And you would not believe how many rules went into the "casual" dress code for WWDC presenters in the Steve Jobs years… Many of the problems of the working conditions (and I agree that overall, Apple is a very nice place to work), would, in my opinion, be quite well suited to traditional union representation.

Dracophoenix 5y ago
What were those rules? No suits?
- microtherion 5y ago
  Hah! As I remember, it had to be slacks (no jeans) in a prescribed range of colors, shoes (no sneakers, no sandals) in a prescribed range of colors, combined with a somewhat ungainly T-shirt. There may have been more rules. For a company whose dress code for engineers ordinarily was more along the lines of "we prefer that genitals be covered when in public", it was rather restrictive.
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    Doesn't seem to have to changed much these past few conferences either. Did you ever have present yourself? Was there a dress code for MacWorld way back when?
    - microtherion 5y ago
      The 2019 dress code was definitely more relaxed, if you look here, for instance: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/408/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/408/ Shirts, worn tucked or untucked, jeans. Compare with the 2001 dress code: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX3gE8DMjR4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX3gE8DMjR4 I presented a number of times, but not in the last couple of years.
chmaynard 5y ago
Here's an example of what I had in mind. I was working at Apple during the time when the Infinite Loop campus was designed. I recall that the Apple execs treated the R&D engineers as equal stakeholders in the design of the working spaces. I had the pleasure of working in IL-3 for six years and it was the best office environment I have ever seen anywhere -- spacious, quiet private offices with numerous comfortable common spaces for conversations and informal meetings. Apparently the interior design of the Apple Park headquarters was handled quite differently. Many employees were saddened when they experienced the working environment there, and some even refused to move in.

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