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A year of a kids life is an eternity for them. Two is forever! You are stealing their childhood away from them to protect who, exactly? What is even the point o

A year of a kids life is an eternity for them. Two is forever! You are stealing their childhood away from them to protect who, exactly? What is even the point of masking them. Teachers have been vaccinated. Parents have been vaccinated. Kids aren’t at risk. Why this obsession with reducing cases if we took the sting out of covid? Kids need to be children. They aren’t human shields for adults. Adults are expect to sacrifice for kids, not the other way around. Kids deserve their one and only childhood. They don’t deserve to be treated like disease vectors that need to be muzzled to make frightened parents and educators feel safe. Double so when all those adults can get a free, highly effective vaccine. Making them mandatory is even worse. The state has no right to force my kid to wear a mask at school in order to have an education. Parents should be making that call for their own kid.

simonw 5y ago
"Teachers have been vaccinated. Parents have been vaccinated." I really wish that was true! Sadly in the USA the amount of "vaccine hesitancy" remains unbelievably high.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  Who cares? If you and your loved ones are vaccinated y’all are good to go. As the article this discussion is about… covid is here forever. Time to accept it and move the hell on.
  - simonw 5y ago
    I care. I'm vaccinated. I can still catch it - I'm much more unlikely to end up in hospital, but it's still an unpleasant illness to have, with a small chance of long-term complications that are not at all well understood. And if I do catch it I can still spread it to others, who may not be vaccinated. I very much care about not killing someone else by spreading Covid to them, even if they deliberately chose not to get the vaccine. I'm furious with them (and with the information sources they consumed that lead them to that decision) but I absolutely don't want to contribute to their suffering or death.
    - peder 5y ago
      >I can still catch it Yes, you can still catch it regardless what we do with NPIs. Stop living in fear.
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        Judging by how many of my well thought out comments got downvoted… lots of people here are living in fear still. It’s son intellectually dishonest to downvote people who express valid criticism. It’s pure tribalism… which is what is just about 40% for all our actions the last 1.6 years.
    - h3cate 5y ago
      I hate to be blunt but sometimes life is unpleasant, even more so now. Do you think that it's fair to demand people change their way of living because you don't want an unpleasant illness? I think it's unpleasant when people eat seafood (I don't like the smell) but I don't demand everybody stop eating seafood.
      - simonw 5y ago
        "Do you think that it's fair to demand people change their way of living because you don't want an unpleasant illness?" I think it's fair to demand that they change their way of living to prevent more deaths - 645,000 and counting just in the USA. If we weren't living in a sea of unvaccinated people this conversation would be a lot easier.
      - nytgop77 5y ago
        Manners change over time. Maybe masks will join normal etiquette with other polite things, which benefits everyone around. (such as: closing your mouth when coughing, washing hands after going to the toilet, wearing at least shorts)
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      You do you. Just don't force society to continue doing any of this, that's all I ask. It's time to move on.
  - EForEndeavour 5y ago
    > Who cares? If you and your loved ones are vaccinated y’all are good to go. The effects of COVID complications aren't somehow magically isolated to the patient. Good luck to anyone who's young, healthy, and COVID-vaccinated, but has a bike or car accident, gives birth in a hospital, falls down some stairs, or otherwise requires inpatient care. Remember the endlessly repeated mantra to "flatten the curve" from circa March 2020? The "curve" refers to ICU occupancy. Max that out and suddenly the effects of COVID spill beyond just sickening and killing its direct victims to complicating your health system.
    - jstanley 5y ago
      I thought we already flattened the curve. In March 2020. So why aren't we back to normal now?
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        Because the privileged tech worker class is still afraid even after everybody they know got vaccinated.
tehjoker 5y ago
Delta infects and kills kids. PICUs are getting full in some areas.
- herbst 5y ago
  No. Don't remember? Someone, somewhere, early in the beginning said children are not affected at all!!1! /s
nerdponx 5y ago
It's a surgical mask, not a ball and chain.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  You are forcing children, who are entirely dependent upon the judgment of adults, to wear a mask every day of school--indefinitely. That is a pretty big ask. Especially with almost no proof that it is required, works, and doesn't harm children.
  - orf 5y ago
    What's the difference between that and asking them to wear a uniform?
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      Unlike a uniform masks cover the most important way humans express emotion. That alone is enough reason to not require kids to wear them. The justification for kids wearing masks is so paper thin with so little attention paid to what emotional and development effects it has on the kids… it boggles my mind. Supporting kids in masks is intellectually and morally bankrupt. And to the people downvoting me and gaslighting me… you are part of the problem. I have a right to feel the way I do, which is reason enough to never, ever force parents to mask their kids in order to get public education. It should be the parents choice, period.
    - aakresearch 5y ago
      The fact that we've let one disgusting abuse to creep up on us is not an excuse to green light all of them. Uniform may not be the hill to die on, but a pretty awful thing nonetheless. In ex-USSR during early 90s, when many rules around school discipline were effectively spayed, what went out - let me tell you - red ties first, and uniforms the close second. Despite all the scolding from principals and teachers.
peder 5y ago
Exactly right. The parent poster you replied to is another in the long list of people that flippantly disregard the harms of masking. Good luck dealing with a generation that has developed unhealthy phobias and has severe emotional attachment issues that's also unequipped to enter college.
h3cate 5y ago
I never considered this argument. Glad this comment thread hasn't descended into silly name calling and people are actually putting their arguments forwards
amatecha 5y ago
As a former kid (lol), I can't say having to wear a mask would have had any adverse effect on my school experience. It sucked anyways. I hated being there and hated wasting my life every day being shown material that was of zero benefit to me, and being treated like crap by people who don't even know me. Honestly back then I would have felt the same thing that I do now: that I am happy to wear a mask so I and/or my parents/grandparents or other people around me don't die of a completely preventable virus, and that people who refuse to wear masks are idiots for not doing the most simple, effortless thing to help prevent the needless spread of the virus. Wearing a mask doesn't steal anyone's childhood. Does wearing glasses steal your childhood? How about braces? We do A LOT of uncomfortable things in our life for our health and future. Wearing a mask is one of those things, due to the ongoing pandemic. I mean, added bonus, I haven't had a single cold or flu or anything like that in over a year and a half. I'm guessing you (and anyone reading this) can probably say the same, if you strictly masked up, used hand sanitizer, etc. Yeah I've been sick for other reasons, but not a single time have I been sick from something transmitted by another person. First time in my decades of life that I've gone this long without any transmissible illness.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  Honestly, all of your stuff sounds like rationalization. Rationalizing putting masks on kids despite there being little evidence they work, are something society wants, and won't have any negative impact on kids. Don't forget, kids have agency. Has anybody asked them what they want? And it isn't my job to provide proof or data. I'm the critic. I'm the one that wants things to operate as normal. All the burden of proof is upon those who wish to force my child to wear a mask her entire school day 5 days a week. Thus far, all I hear is "OMG CASES", "kids are resilient", and a bunch of weak rationalizations. Nobody has made a case who or what we are protecting. Nobody has provided an end game. Nobody has proven it won't harm kids. Nobody has even asked kids. It's disgusting, really.
  - jackson1442 5y ago
    Aren't we protecting our health systems? Mississippi is out of ICU beds[0]. As in, if you are in critical condition for ANY REASON, you're just out of luck. Kids are gross. They're going to spread disease. Why not take a (relatively simple) precaution that can save lives, including people who didn't even catch COVID. It's like how I look both ways before turning onto or crossing a one-way. Sure, it probably doesn't help much, but there's a chance that it could save my life and another driver's. [0]: https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14,21994,420,873.html https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14,21994,420,873.html
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nostrademons 5y ago
"You are stealing their childhood away" Stealing their childhood away, really? It's an article of clothing. My kid objects to wearing pants a whole lot more than he objects to wearing a mask. He still needs to wear pants. Come to think of it, maybe that's why this is such a huge deal. People have come to think of clothing as a marker of your tribe, and not wearing the expected clothing as social deviancy. That's why wearing a hajib is so triggering for so many Americans, or why guys wearing skirts is an affront against nature (but strangely not in Scotland!), or why folks get killed over wearing gang colors, or why I desperately wanted a denim jacket when I was in 1st grade in the 80s. And if that's the case, sure, you can have your tribe and I'll have mine, and my kid will wear a mask because that's what the people around him do, and yours won't because that's what the people around her do, and then maybe my tribe will still have ICU units available and yours won't. Okay. But I can assure you that kids in Singapore or Taiwan or now California, where mask-wearing is just accepted, grow up just fine.
- chlodwig 5y ago
  Stealing their childhood away, really? It's an article of clothing. It's an article of clothing which covers of the faces, the facial expressions, the smiles of all their friends and teachers. A typical modern preschool for two working parents is what, 50 hours a week? You are sending your child to a place where they are spending the bulk of their waking hours, the bulk of their socialization, and not allowing them to see smiles. I can still remember the faces of my preschool friends, I am still friends with some. If I had never been able to match smiles with them, would it still be the same? And even if they are fine in the long run, you are still making a year of their life (or more? what is the end game exactly?) significantly worse. It boggles my mind that smart people like yourself are so blase about this. and then maybe my tribe will still have ICU units available and yours won't. Masking kids at schools isn't going to have anything to do with this. Denmark has done just fine keeping schools open with no masking ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/denmark-schools-covid-19-pandemic-1.5720508 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/denmark-schools-covid-19-pande... ). If ICU's are within two or three doublings of filling up, then shut down the gyms and concerts and indoor dining for adults. If all such things are open, as I believe they are in California, then protecting ICU units is clearly not an imminent concern. Okay. But I can assure you that kids in Singapore or Taiwan or now California, where mask-wearing is just accepted, grow up just fine. What? Until coronavirus hit, there has never been a society that kept it's children masked among children from other families at all times. No kid has "grown up" under such conditions.

simonw 5y ago

"Teachers have been vaccinated. Parents have been vaccinated." I really wish that was true! Sadly in the USA the amount of "vaccine hesitancy" remains unbelievably high.

spookthesunset 5y ago
Who cares? If you and your loved ones are vaccinated y’all are good to go. As the article this discussion is about… covid is here forever. Time to accept it and move the hell on.
- simonw 5y ago
  I care. I'm vaccinated. I can still catch it - I'm much more unlikely to end up in hospital, but it's still an unpleasant illness to have, with a small chance of long-term complications that are not at all well understood. And if I do catch it I can still spread it to others, who may not be vaccinated. I very much care about not killing someone else by spreading Covid to them, even if they deliberately chose not to get the vaccine. I'm furious with them (and with the information sources they consumed that lead them to that decision) but I absolutely don't want to contribute to their suffering or death.
  - peder 5y ago
    >I can still catch it Yes, you can still catch it regardless what we do with NPIs. Stop living in fear.
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      Judging by how many of my well thought out comments got downvoted… lots of people here are living in fear still. It’s son intellectually dishonest to downvote people who express valid criticism. It’s pure tribalism… which is what is just about 40% for all our actions the last 1.6 years.
  - h3cate 5y ago
    I hate to be blunt but sometimes life is unpleasant, even more so now. Do you think that it's fair to demand people change their way of living because you don't want an unpleasant illness? I think it's unpleasant when people eat seafood (I don't like the smell) but I don't demand everybody stop eating seafood.
    - simonw 5y ago
      "Do you think that it's fair to demand people change their way of living because you don't want an unpleasant illness?" I think it's fair to demand that they change their way of living to prevent more deaths - 645,000 and counting just in the USA. If we weren't living in a sea of unvaccinated people this conversation would be a lot easier.
    - nytgop77 5y ago
      Manners change over time. Maybe masks will join normal etiquette with other polite things, which benefits everyone around. (such as: closing your mouth when coughing, washing hands after going to the toilet, wearing at least shorts)
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    You do you. Just don't force society to continue doing any of this, that's all I ask. It's time to move on.
- EForEndeavour 5y ago
  > Who cares? If you and your loved ones are vaccinated y’all are good to go. The effects of COVID complications aren't somehow magically isolated to the patient. Good luck to anyone who's young, healthy, and COVID-vaccinated, but has a bike or car accident, gives birth in a hospital, falls down some stairs, or otherwise requires inpatient care. Remember the endlessly repeated mantra to "flatten the curve" from circa March 2020? The "curve" refers to ICU occupancy. Max that out and suddenly the effects of COVID spill beyond just sickening and killing its direct victims to complicating your health system.
  - jstanley 5y ago
    I thought we already flattened the curve. In March 2020. So why aren't we back to normal now?
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      Because the privileged tech worker class is still afraid even after everybody they know got vaccinated.

tehjoker 5y ago

Delta infects and kills kids. PICUs are getting full in some areas.

herbst 5y ago
No. Don't remember? Someone, somewhere, early in the beginning said children are not affected at all!!1! /s

nerdponx 5y ago

It's a surgical mask, not a ball and chain.

spookthesunset 5y ago
You are forcing children, who are entirely dependent upon the judgment of adults, to wear a mask every day of school--indefinitely. That is a pretty big ask. Especially with almost no proof that it is required, works, and doesn't harm children.
- orf 5y ago
  What's the difference between that and asking them to wear a uniform?
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    Unlike a uniform masks cover the most important way humans express emotion. That alone is enough reason to not require kids to wear them. The justification for kids wearing masks is so paper thin with so little attention paid to what emotional and development effects it has on the kids… it boggles my mind. Supporting kids in masks is intellectually and morally bankrupt. And to the people downvoting me and gaslighting me… you are part of the problem. I have a right to feel the way I do, which is reason enough to never, ever force parents to mask their kids in order to get public education. It should be the parents choice, period.
  - aakresearch 5y ago
    The fact that we've let one disgusting abuse to creep up on us is not an excuse to green light all of them. Uniform may not be the hill to die on, but a pretty awful thing nonetheless. In ex-USSR during early 90s, when many rules around school discipline were effectively spayed, what went out - let me tell you - red ties first, and uniforms the close second. Despite all the scolding from principals and teachers.

peder 5y ago

Exactly right. The parent poster you replied to is another in the long list of people that flippantly disregard the harms of masking. Good luck dealing with a generation that has developed unhealthy phobias and has severe emotional attachment issues that's also unequipped to enter college.

h3cate 5y ago

I never considered this argument. Glad this comment thread hasn't descended into silly name calling and people are actually putting their arguments forwards

amatecha 5y ago

As a former kid (lol), I can't say having to wear a mask would have had any adverse effect on my school experience. It sucked anyways. I hated being there and hated wasting my life every day being shown material that was of zero benefit to me, and being treated like crap by people who don't even know me. Honestly back then I would have felt the same thing that I do now: that I am happy to wear a mask so I and/or my parents/grandparents or other people around me don't die of a completely preventable virus, and that people who refuse to wear masks are idiots for not doing the most simple, effortless thing to help prevent the needless spread of the virus. Wearing a mask doesn't steal anyone's childhood. Does wearing glasses steal your childhood? How about braces? We do A LOT of uncomfortable things in our life for our health and future. Wearing a mask is one of those things, due to the ongoing pandemic. I mean, added bonus, I haven't had a single cold or flu or anything like that in over a year and a half. I'm guessing you (and anyone reading this) can probably say the same, if you strictly masked up, used hand sanitizer, etc. Yeah I've been sick for other reasons, but not a single time have I been sick from something transmitted by another person. First time in my decades of life that I've gone this long without any transmissible illness.

spookthesunset 5y ago
Honestly, all of your stuff sounds like rationalization. Rationalizing putting masks on kids despite there being little evidence they work, are something society wants, and won't have any negative impact on kids. Don't forget, kids have agency. Has anybody asked them what they want? And it isn't my job to provide proof or data. I'm the critic. I'm the one that wants things to operate as normal. All the burden of proof is upon those who wish to force my child to wear a mask her entire school day 5 days a week. Thus far, all I hear is "OMG CASES", "kids are resilient", and a bunch of weak rationalizations. Nobody has made a case who or what we are protecting. Nobody has provided an end game. Nobody has proven it won't harm kids. Nobody has even asked kids. It's disgusting, really.
- jackson1442 5y ago
  Aren't we protecting our health systems? Mississippi is out of ICU beds[0]. As in, if you are in critical condition for ANY REASON, you're just out of luck. Kids are gross. They're going to spread disease. Why not take a (relatively simple) precaution that can save lives, including people who didn't even catch COVID. It's like how I look both ways before turning onto or crossing a one-way. Sure, it probably doesn't help much, but there's a chance that it could save my life and another driver's. [0]: https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14,21994,420,873.html https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14,21994,420,873.html

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nostrademons 5y ago

"You are stealing their childhood away" Stealing their childhood away, really? It's an article of clothing. My kid objects to wearing pants a whole lot more than he objects to wearing a mask. He still needs to wear pants. Come to think of it, maybe that's why this is such a huge deal. People have come to think of clothing as a marker of your tribe, and not wearing the expected clothing as social deviancy. That's why wearing a hajib is so triggering for so many Americans, or why guys wearing skirts is an affront against nature (but strangely not in Scotland!), or why folks get killed over wearing gang colors, or why I desperately wanted a denim jacket when I was in 1st grade in the 80s. And if that's the case, sure, you can have your tribe and I'll have mine, and my kid will wear a mask because that's what the people around him do, and yours won't because that's what the people around her do, and then maybe my tribe will still have ICU units available and yours won't. Okay. But I can assure you that kids in Singapore or Taiwan or now California, where mask-wearing is just accepted, grow up just fine.

chlodwig 5y ago
Stealing their childhood away, really? It's an article of clothing. It's an article of clothing which covers of the faces, the facial expressions, the smiles of all their friends and teachers. A typical modern preschool for two working parents is what, 50 hours a week? You are sending your child to a place where they are spending the bulk of their waking hours, the bulk of their socialization, and not allowing them to see smiles. I can still remember the faces of my preschool friends, I am still friends with some. If I had never been able to match smiles with them, would it still be the same? And even if they are fine in the long run, you are still making a year of their life (or more? what is the end game exactly?) significantly worse. It boggles my mind that smart people like yourself are so blase about this. and then maybe my tribe will still have ICU units available and yours won't. Masking kids at schools isn't going to have anything to do with this. Denmark has done just fine keeping schools open with no masking ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/denmark-schools-covid-19-pandemic-1.5720508 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/denmark-schools-covid-19-pande... ). If ICU's are within two or three doublings of filling up, then shut down the gyms and concerts and indoor dining for adults. If all such things are open, as I believe they are in California, then protecting ICU units is clearly not an imminent concern. Okay. But I can assure you that kids in Singapore or Taiwan or now California, where mask-wearing is just accepted, grow up just fine. What? Until coronavirus hit, there has never been a society that kept it's children masked among children from other families at all times. No kid has "grown up" under such conditions.