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The user to whom Apple’s offer is a false choice is one that assumed they would always be able to update to the latest iOS while uploading whatever photos they

The user to whom Apple’s offer is a false choice is one that assumed they would always be able to update to the latest iOS while uploading whatever photos they wanted into iCloud Photo Library without any kind of content scanning. Turning private API into public API is a huge investment, and I’ll be honest: this hypothetical user seems quite far-fetched, and I don’t see how this investment is worthwhile for Apple to make. Especially so because most of the criticism is about a slippery slope where all rules don’t apply: Apple could just as easily scan the photos the 3rd party processes as well. So what incremental privacy do they even gain?

matthewdgreen 5y ago
You seem to be conflating a number of very different issues. It would be a lot simpler if you didn’t do that. There are several separate questions. 1) Should users have the right to opt out of scanning. Apple have answered (1) in the affirmative: yes, they understand that some users want this option and have designed their system with explicit guarantees that users can do this. This is not an accident or a miscalculation on Apple’s part. They clearly understand that forcing this scanning on non-consenting users is unacceptable and their marketing copy makes this clear. The second question (2) is whether Apple’s compromise to preserve user privacy (allowing users to disable photo sync while providing no third-party alternatives with equivalent feature sets) is acceptable. Apple presumably thinks it is. I think that disabling Apple’s photo sync features will not be acceptable — and indeed will be actively harmful to some users. We can disagree about whether this matters but this is the heart of the disagreement. Having strong opinions doesn’t settle the question, it just demonstrates that the issue is contentious. Settling the issue requires user surveys and an economic analysis at minimum, not opinions on HN. Then there is a third point (3): does Apple have any obligation to provide opt-out users with alternative services that bring their devices back to the full functionality that they possessed when the devices were purchased. Your view is that “this is not worth it to Apple.” We do not disagree. My claim is that Apple’s view on the issue is not necessarily the final world on the issue. Apple also believes that they should have a monopoly on app distribution and many other aspects that define the iOS experience. These views are disputed and there is no “correct” answer. My claim is that the operation of cloud infrastructure should be a part of this dispute, and Apple’s decision to make their system “opt in” should be viewed as such in light of the fact that Apple controls essential features in such a way that Apple can effectively hobble the device of any user who declines to consent, with no recourse or alternative available to the user. I think your response to this has to grapple with Apple’s very clear argument on (1). Which means that “Apple can do whatever it wants because they’re powerful” isn’t a sufficient response. And if the rest of your answer revolves around unsupported hypotheses about what Apple users expected, then you should probably come back with some strong evidence like user surveys to support those claims.
- shuckles 5y ago
  I agree with your framing except that in 2 and 3, the matter is already settled. The status quo is Apple gets to build what it wants. It’s on you and others to do an immense amount of work to prove that Apple should be forced into building features you want and not what they deem best. I’m generally happy with what they’ve made, and I think the power to compel them to make changes is more likely to be wielded by dumb and possibly malevolent people than altruistic, privacy-focused computer experts. I’m not sure why the burden to do user surveys is on me. Presumably the first order user survey is, “Will our customers abandon us?” which Apple must have done and everything past that is on you to conduct to justify your ask of them.

matthewdgreen 5y ago

You seem to be conflating a number of very different issues. It would be a lot simpler if you didn’t do that. There are several separate questions. 1) Should users have the right to opt out of scanning. Apple have answered (1) in the affirmative: yes, they understand that some users want this option and have designed their system with explicit guarantees that users can do this. This is not an accident or a miscalculation on Apple’s part. They clearly understand that forcing this scanning on non-consenting users is unacceptable and their marketing copy makes this clear. The second question (2) is whether Apple’s compromise to preserve user privacy (allowing users to disable photo sync while providing no third-party alternatives with equivalent feature sets) is acceptable. Apple presumably thinks it is. I think that disabling Apple’s photo sync features will not be acceptable — and indeed will be actively harmful to some users. We can disagree about whether this matters but this is the heart of the disagreement. Having strong opinions doesn’t settle the question, it just demonstrates that the issue is contentious. Settling the issue requires user surveys and an economic analysis at minimum, not opinions on HN. Then there is a third point (3): does Apple have any obligation to provide opt-out users with alternative services that bring their devices back to the full functionality that they possessed when the devices were purchased. Your view is that “this is not worth it to Apple.” We do not disagree. My claim is that Apple’s view on the issue is not necessarily the final world on the issue. Apple also believes that they should have a monopoly on app distribution and many other aspects that define the iOS experience. These views are disputed and there is no “correct” answer. My claim is that the operation of cloud infrastructure should be a part of this dispute, and Apple’s decision to make their system “opt in” should be viewed as such in light of the fact that Apple controls essential features in such a way that Apple can effectively hobble the device of any user who declines to consent, with no recourse or alternative available to the user. I think your response to this has to grapple with Apple’s very clear argument on (1). Which means that “Apple can do whatever it wants because they’re powerful” isn’t a sufficient response. And if the rest of your answer revolves around unsupported hypotheses about what Apple users expected, then you should probably come back with some strong evidence like user surveys to support those claims.

shuckles 5y ago
I agree with your framing except that in 2 and 3, the matter is already settled. The status quo is Apple gets to build what it wants. It’s on you and others to do an immense amount of work to prove that Apple should be forced into building features you want and not what they deem best. I’m generally happy with what they’ve made, and I think the power to compel them to make changes is more likely to be wielded by dumb and possibly malevolent people than altruistic, privacy-focused computer experts. I’m not sure why the burden to do user surveys is on me. Presumably the first order user survey is, “Will our customers abandon us?” which Apple must have done and everything past that is on you to conduct to justify your ask of them.