28 ms·

A bike parts company ditched Amazon to support indie shops instead

652 points by nabilhat 5y ago

lardo 5y ago
Do they actually make things or are they just selling branded white-label parts? https://www.ziprecruiter.com/c/PNW-Components-LLC/Jobs https://www.ziprecruiter.com/c/PNW-Components-LLC/Jobs
- Matthias247 5y ago
  Define "make". Often companies are doing specifications and blueprints, but outsource the actual manufacturing to other companies. I think this would also apply to PNW, since their products (like the seatpost) are afaik not known to be just relabeled versions of other products.
  - Eiriksmal 5y ago
    +1. Their droppers are whitelabeled TransX, but the other components appear to have actually been designed by PNW and manufactured by various suppliers in Taiwan like most high quality, high volume bike parts. But they're still a business "making things" in the same way that most other companies that sell consumer products are. I have a Loam lever, a Rainier dropper, and Range stem. They're all excellent parts with tasteful branding. PNW's customer support is excellent, when it comes time to inevitably replace a sagging dropper. The stem's bottom has an unusual design that excited some bike wizards on bikes.stackexchange when I had questions about using stems without spacers. That certainly isn't a whitelabeled, off-the-shelf component. With the state of Amazon being what it is, I would never even have thought to look for bike parts on there. The likelihood of accidentally buying a counterfeit part is way, way too high. I buy all my bike parts direct from the manufacturer, whenever possible. PNW has a nice Shopify site, why give Amazon your money?
- PascLeRasc 5y ago
  Their dropper posts are rebranded TranzX parts as far as I know, which is supposedly common: https://stravaigingmtb.com/2017/11/27/so-who-the-hell-made-this-dropper-post/ https://stravaigingmtb.com/2017/11/27/so-who-the-hell-made-t... I heard before that Trek does the same thing with their Bontrager posts.
- micro_cam 5y ago
  They started just with rebranded dropper seat posts you could buy elsewhere but made a name for themselves with excellent customer service and warranty support and reasonable prices even if you could get the same post cheaper elsewhere without the support. Now they have engineered a few unique products you can't get elsewhere though they are all made in asia. Like they make road/gravel style drop style handle bars in uncommon widths.
philistine 5y ago
This is fascinating and a great description to the threats facing Amazon. When you cede responsibility to Amazon that your business requires to perform adequately (in this case it seems to be the ability to match a bike to its compatible parts) than that is a risk for Amazon to lose its place as the internet’s mall if it cannot offer a way to stay relevant. If zero bike parts are available on Amazon today it might become bigger and bigger markets tomorrow, that a company like Shopify is better aligned to serve.
tacker2000 5y ago
This doenst surprise me at all. There are more and more sellers that are frustrated with how amazon deals with them. Amazons top priority is the customer, and thats how they got to this point, but everyone else suffers, from their 3rd party sellers to their suppliers to their own employees. Here is a list of stuff Amazon does: -Anti competitive behaviour on the buy box (Amazon doesnt have the product in stock. You have it, but your offer is still not shown) -Banning sellers for no good reason, and you cant contact anyone helpful -Screwing over their suppliers with Vendor Central, where they buy from you wholesale. They dont pay, they just say the goods were never delivered and dont accept your proof of delivery. I know sellers who are owed over 30k from amazon. -Customers are able to send back items 1 year later. If you dont agree, they can file an “AZ claim”. If you get too manu claims, they ban you. -Support for sellers is the worst combination of overseas call centers using some cookie cutter templates to answer questions. Often you are just copy pasting your question 5 times, until you get somebody with have a brain -Use data from their sellers to create their own products and then force them out of the market -creating huge incentives for chinese sellers which flood and undercut the local sellers Its just a huge behemoth were nobody knows whats going on. In my opinion this company needs to be split up by gov and reigned in. But who knows, maybe more sellers will follow suit and the pressure will be increasing to change things.
- at-fates-hands 5y ago
  >> Banning sellers for no good reason, and you cant contact anyone helpful. I must be getting old. How did these companies get so massive without any meaningful customer service departments? Amazon, Google, Facebook and many, many others where customer service is not even bothered with, yet people continue to use their products and services.
  - theturtletalks 5y ago
    It's because they make it super easy for the customer, but use dark patterns for the sellers. Amazon can afford to lose sellers since more are popping up everyday and willing to sell items for a loss to gain market share. The parent also didn't mention that Amazon has a policy of not allowing sellers to sell their products for a lower price on their own website. If only customers knew how much Amazon is screwing over sellers, they would be wary. Many sellers I know themselves don't shop on Amazon themselves due to this.
TonyTrapp 5y ago
It's so interesting to see how the pandemic hits different countries in different ways. This article talks about struggling bike shops. The truth couldn't be any more different in Germany. Bike shops were run over by customers because so many more people wanted to either go to work by bike instead of public transportation, or they had no work to do so they decided to go biking in their new spare time. Repair shops are super busy, but now there's a shortage in bike parts, too...
- zwieback 5y ago
  I think that's basically the same situation here in the US, bike shops are super busy but the supply chain can't keep up. I also have to say that most bike shops I've visited aren't that good. They seem to have an over-supply of awkward young sales staff giving middling advice while facing an undersupply of bikes and parts. Also, the constant churn in componentry is not helping.
- jetrink 5y ago
  It sounds like the bike shops were struggling due to low inventory, not low demand. Anecdotally, that was the case at the bike shops near me in Chicago, which had empty shelves, but also months-long wait lists for their tuneup and repair services. Unfortunately, bike sales are a large part of their revenue.
  - lmm 5y ago
    There's long been a mismatch in the bike shop revenue model, where most of the value they add comes from labour but they charge a lot of that via markup on parts rather than directly.
- jwagenet 5y ago
  > By the start of 2021, Kerson heard of bike shops on the brink of closing down due to such high demand and low inventory. It sounds like shops should have done well, but we’re subject to shortages which lead to purchases at online retailers instead.
- yardie 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jrd259 5y ago
> After leaving his job in global business development at Amazon, Aaron Kerson used his knowledge of the platform’s sales algorithms to power up his new business. Don't corporations typically have non-compete clauses to prevent an employee from exploiting proprietary knowledge they gained while working for the firm? Would we be supportive of someone who left (e.g.) a small bicycle parts company to help Amazon rule that market?
- fossuser 5y ago
  In California non-competes are [edit: unenforceable] (it's arguably one of the reasons for Silicon Valley's success). It varies by state though, so not sure about Washington and elsewhere.
  - matmatmatmat 5y ago
    Nit: They are unenforcable, but not illegal in themselves: https://www.callahan-law.com/are-non-competes-enforceable-in-california/ https://www.callahan-law.com/are-non-competes-enforceable-in...
    - fossuser 5y ago
      Yep - you're right, edited and fixed.
- InitialLastName 5y ago
  When he started the company in 2015, presumably he wasn't competing with Amazon (by selling products on their platform that they don't have their own brand of). By now, I'd assume any non-compete that might cover "don't sell products that compete with us" have expired.
- tkahnoski 5y ago
  Yes... (not a lawyer so grain of salt here) There are three basic tools for IP protection: 1) Copyright - protects outright copying of an IP asset 2) Patent - protects against the reimplementation of the same IP 3) Trade Secret - Similar to patent, but enforcement is trickier especially for software as you have to demonstrate a benefit to it being secret as well as your efforts to keep it secret. Non-competes are more of a blunt instrument and a controversial topic. Amazon is infamous for having them. Typically only hear of companies trying to enforce these at executive level as any enforcement at a lower level can impact recruiting heavily.
jrd259 5y ago
Kerson and his team asked buyers at every retailer who stocks PNW parts to remove them from their Amazon stores too, so that everyone involved could maximize their profits and not undercut each other. IANAL, but is this not collusion or price fixing?
- lardo 5y ago
  This is pretty much how local bike shops work.
- InitialLastName 5y ago
  Aren't manufacturers (and branders) normally able to set the minimum advertised prices of their products, in addition to making suggestions (backed by "if you break the rules, we won't sell this to you any more") about how and where retailers can sell and advertise the product?
  - ozzythecat 5y ago
    You can set a minimum advertised price I think. That’s why on some sites you don’t get to see the lower price until check out. I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine price fixing laws still apply.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
a-dub 5y ago
amusingly there's nothing particularly new here in terms of the alternatives they're exploring. i used to work in a local bike shop and thought about even doing bike parts e-commerce in the 90s. bicycles and parts have always been a high touch business. manufacturers treat local bike shops like customers, assign reps who visit to ensure merchandising standards and have strict rules regarding pricing to ensure all the shops can survive. it amuses me to read that they're setting that up now as if it's new, as it is how it used to work for a very long time.
scoofy 5y ago
If I recall correctly, Specialized Bikes pulled all their products from Amazon a while ago, pointing to the failing local bike shops eventually hurting the bike business for everyone. Bicycles are not toys. They are vehicles that need maintenance. You can do much of that maintenance yourself if you're a nerd, but the vast majority of cyclists are dependent on local bike shops to sustain the cycling community. The bicycle/parts manufacturers need a large cycling community to sell products to. The large cycling community will have novice and intermediate cyclists that will abandon cycling if their bikes break down. The novice and intermediate cyclist need local bike shops to do maintenance on their bikes at affordable rates. The local bike shops need a revenue stream beyond labor for maintenance to be affordable. Thus, the major bicycle manufacturers need to give a oligopoly status to the local bike shops in order to keep their user base large. As a life long cyclist, I've seen the industry grow and wane, and throughout it all, I've seen the vast majority of people think bicycles are some type of sports-equipment. Decisions like this are one of only a few business models that I can see sustaining the community. I'm actually surprised and optimistic to see the major manufacturer Trek start building their own brick and mortar shops in certain major cities, though I'd prefer to see this happen through a major cooperative between the various brands. If you care about making cycling a serious, sustainable transit alternative, we need to maintain the entire ecosystem of ridership, which means the race to the bottom on amazon must be stopped.
- namdnay 5y ago
  > The novice and intermediate cyclist need local bike shops to do maintenance on their bikes at affordable rates. The local bike shops need a revenue stream beyond labor for maintenance to be affordable. I don’t agree with this reasoning. Why wouldn’t maintenance be priced at the true rate? In what way is it better for consumers to overpay for their equipment in order to underpay for maintenance?
  - ljf 5y ago
    I didn't read it to say that, just that it is very hard to be a mechanic only shop - they also need to sell something else to be a profitable business. In London there a few mechanics/coffee shops that stayed profitable that way. If more people cycled I'm sure you would see more 'just mechanics' but in most places they can't afford to be that.
Loic 5y ago
Ortlieb[0], the very appreciated maker of bicycle bags, is not selling over Amazon. They are selling online, but your order/payment is sent directly to a local shop delivering to you (in Germany). I really like it. Some years ago, Amazon was pushing "Ortlieb bag" adverts on Google to redirect to Amazon where the bags were not to be found and was sued. Amazon lost[1]. [0]: https://www.ortlieb.com https://www.ortlieb.com [1]: https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/ortlieb-gegen-amazon-fahrradtaschenhersteller-gewinnt-prozess-a-1278894.html https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/ortlieb-gegen-am...
- Symbiote 5y ago
  I was very impressed with Ortlieb when I was able to buy a replacement part, for about €3, for a 15 year old bag. I will be a lifelong customer, but the bags are so durable I might never need another for myself.
  - GreenWatermelon 5y ago
    You can still buy some for your whole family. They might also make other products.
- progbits 5y ago
  Similarly Peak Design (a well respected brand of quality camera gear including backpacks) is not selling on Amazon. See recent HN thread [0] about Amazon making a cheap knock-off of their product. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26338525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26338525
hprotagonist 5y ago
Good. PNW bikes (and treefort and some others) do good stuff. At this point selling on amazon makes me trust you less — i’ve gotten way too many fake parts accidentally over the years to trust them with.
silicon2401 5y ago
Personally I find local bike and book shops to be excellent alternatives to Amazon. For tech stuff I go to Best Buy where possible (not exactly a local shop, but at least it's still competition for Amazon). Nice to see the suppliers themselves pull out of Amazon.
- jonahhorowitz 5y ago
  Best Buy is great for electronics. They have control over their supply chain and you don't have to deal with counterfeits.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    Agreed. They even offer free 2-day shipping just like Amazon (at least past a certain price point or something) or let you pick up in store, which I've preferred in certain cases where I want to minimize the time a fragile purchase spends shipping. My one gripe has been that they put a huge sale sticker right on the box of the animal crossing edition switch I bought. At least it was on the side and not front and center, but it would've been nice to not do that. Adding on to the Amazon alternative, Target is also great. I've happily purchased many electronics, home supplies, etc from them. Costco too, though they sell a different kind of inventory. Again, not quite mom and pops, but IMO anything that's not Amazon or Walmart is still an improvement.
- mym1990 5y ago
  As an additional benefit, local bike shops and book shops also usually have some pretty cool people working there!
- HWR_14 5y ago
  I went to a manufacturer's website recently to buy something direct (cut out the middle man, better for everyone, yay!) The price was double that on Amazon. And they charged shipping. I get that bringing wearhousing in house has to cost more money, but it was just strange to see that dramatic a discount.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
JohnFen 5y ago
I love this trend. I stopped using Amazon last year, and I'm very interested in doing business with companies who chose likewise.
- Kaibeezy 5y ago
  It’s a start. See also “Parallel Polis”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis And, Havel’s The Power of the Powerless: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless
mariushn 5y ago
Related trivia: Jeff Bezos's father was a local bike shop owner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP80jo1_UgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP80jo1_UgU
- greenie_beans 5y ago
  wow! the irony is rich. i wonder how amazon impacted his small business?
dkhenry 5y ago
I am happy the parts company is ditching Amazon, but its so much more important for us consumers to ditch amazon. I have cut my amazon purchases down to only 16 total items this year so far ( down from ~50 in 2020 ) and I am now only ordering from Amazon as a last option when I cant find what I want anywhere else. That brief glimpse of the Amazon future where all stores are shut down, and we can only ever buy things online, and everyone is an amazon serf was such a wakeup call as to what we were heading towards. I just hope enough people can jump ship to keep a functioning non amazon centric supply chain.
- Rapzid 5y ago
  I like Amazon and online shopping; won't ditch any time soon and don't think it's important for people to do so. The local businesses I was worried about going under were restaurants and others in the food/service industry(would lump experience in there as well; the zoo, botanical garden, museums, and etc).
  - jungturk 5y ago
    > don't think it's important for people to do so Is that because you don't believe in the negative externalities or because you think they're worth the convenience?
    - ozzythecat 5y ago
      The narrative I hear is that Amazon is destroying businesses. The issue I have is that this isn’t really true. Here’s an anecdote. I drive 20 minutes to the mall. After finding parking and getting into a shoe store, there’s no one really there to help me. Once they get around to me, they don’t have my size. And it’s also apparent the person working there has no interest in helping. Whether they have my size or whether I found what I was looking for is basically not their problem. So I drive at least 40 minutes round trip, plus the hassle of parking, finding the store in the mall, and waiting on someone to help me. Now my time is valuable. I lost my time. I paid for gas. I also put miles on my car. And depending on the day, I also had to deal with traffic. IMO businesses refuse to compete. If Amazon is doing it better than them, then hats off to Amazon. If a business is doing better than Amazon, then I’ll go with that business. IMO the “negative externalities” puts blame on Amazon while pretending like these other stores even try to compete. Btw this binary view of the world where Amazon is bad and others are good (or vice versa) seems to be a very American thing.
pizzaknife 5y ago
i prefer to work on my bicycle. This is both a privilege and a luxury and i recognize such. PNW components are wonderful. I shop LBS for tools and "need it today" parts. I do not find value in paying the majority of bike mechanics (ive been scraping my shins religiously for 32yrs and part of what gives me confidence in jumping them tens of feet into the arm at the ripe age of midlife). I do, however, find value in shop talk and buying the right tools / components (even if special ordered through the shops). Its a mixed bag of bolts
FrameworkFred 5y ago
I suspect this is a trend that'll continue as market buyers and sellers realize Amazon is a poor fit for certain of their activities. I already avoid Amazon as a consumer when the brand, quality, or delivery date really counts. But I also avoid Lowes when I'm buying appliances for tenant properties because they can't be relied upon to call before they deliver. And I don't buy from Harbor Freight Tools when equipment failure might be fatal because some things I've bought there haven't survived their first use. But those places have saved me a ton of money over the years when their model has worked to my benefit, just like Amazon has made a vast improvement in certain areas of my life. I suspect companies like PNC are coming to similar realizations about Amazon as they see that their returns (or the implications on their reputations, or their confidence in continued sales) paint a picture that's less attractive than pursuing alternatives.
IncRnd 5y ago
From the article: "PNW wasn’t the only business growing tired of Amazon. Kerson and his team asked buyers at every retailer who stocks PNW parts to remove them from their Amazon stores too, so that everyone involved could maximize their profits and not undercut each other." ... “We set up these calls and we were not expecting them to go very well,” says Marshall, “As soon as we started talking about it the buyers were really excited.” From the FTC: "Price fixing is an agreement (written, verbal, or inferred from conduct) among competitors that raises, lowers, or stabilizes prices or competitive terms ... Price fixing relates not only to prices, but also to other terms that affect prices to consumers, such as shipping fees, warranties, discount programs, or financing rates. Antitrust scrutiny may occur when competitors discuss the following topics: ..., Capacity, Identity of customers, ... Defendants may not justify their behavior by arguing that the prices were reasonable to consumers, were necessary to avoid cut-throat competition, or stimulated competition." [1] Is there a lawer who can say if that was price fixing? [1] https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
- r00fus 5y ago
  Is avoiding a major adversary/predatory channel considered price-fixing?
  - Wohlf 5y ago
    Yes, if the effect/methods is the same.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- dstaley 5y ago
  IANAL, but I think this would qualify as a resale price maintenance agreement[1], which is legal at a federal level and in most (but not all!) states. I guess it really depends on what exactly "not undercut each other" entailed. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/resale_price_maintenance_agreements https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/resale_price_maintenance_agr...
tomaszs 5y ago
I was considering to use Amazon Fulfillment for Summon The JSON decks. However, it occurred to be very expensive. My customers are fine to wait a couple of days. They can also choose fast manufacturing, to get decks faster. I don't fell I miss anything by not selling or fulfilling by Amazon.
samstave 5y ago
I've biked THOUSANDS of miles in the last years - growing up in Tahoe biking all through the 80s... Heck this month alone I have biked nearly 500 miles (26 miles a day, 29" mtn.... Anyway, Have you dealt with a lot of "local bike shops" -- I have dealt with too many to count. Lets look at a few pros and cons of "local bike shops": Pro: -- Support a local business -- Go in and talk to an actual person? (maybe) Cons: -- Many gear-head bike shop employees (specifically the mechanics) have a BOFH attitude, are gruff, rarely have time to talk - generally have an attitude. -- Many of the local shops are now pushing bikes that are fucking $10,000 -- I looked at a bike in Mikes Bikes just last week - and it was $15,000 -- Gear selection is limited to a couple brands, and prices are no better than amazon -- Bike shops aren't like starbucks - they are fucking far apart. -- I have biked DAILY for over a decade. I have gotten HUNDREDS of flats - and I always carry 2 tubes with me (yes, I want to go tubeless, just havent done so yet) - getting tubes off amazon is ideal. Having to have to drive very far to go buy a tube is a non-starter Local bike shops currently have shitty inventories because of the supply shortage from china - and to have to again drive to the bike shop to find out that their inventory is low, that the lowest end bike is $5,000 and they want to sell every garment for >$50 with stupid logos and printing all over them to show that you, the customer-turned-billboard are "serious about your biking" -- Having to stand near too many weekend-road-warriors who really don't need anything but want to instead show you how much money they threw into their entire kit.... -- Having to deal with upsell in certain cases -- Having to get blank stares with questions about anything outside of what the store actually sells and too many answers of "gee, I don't know" --- Yeah, While I hate Amazon's monopoly as much as everyone -- this does NOT make all local bike shops even. Yes, I have met some awesome ones - not not enough to where every bike shop nearest me is a good one in every single city I have loved in all over the greater bay area all the way up to Tahoe City...
- Finnucane 5y ago
  I’ve biked daily for a decade too, and I’ve not had hundreds of flats. What kind of crap tires are you buying? Why would you drive to buy tubes if you have a bike?
  - samstave 5y ago
mtnGoat 5y ago
fact of the matter is... if you are a cyclist, amazon is definitely not the place to look for bike parts. sadly, all the SEO spammers only advertise amazon affiliate links so you'd think amazon sells decent bike parts, but you'd be wrong. IMHO google should ban any website heavily linking to amazon affiliate program.
Lamad123 5y ago
You can live very happily without using Amazon!! I have barely used them in the last couple years and I've been fine!
SevenSigs 5y ago
nice that they can afford this.
streamofdigits 5y ago
If these are the growing pains of a "bike economy" this would be a good thing. In large parts of the world bikes could and should become the first choice for mobility and there needs to be a healthy ecosystem to support this transition. From (more) local manufacturing, to distribution, servicing, upgrading and eventually recycling(pun).
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Probably smart; anything you put on Amazon nowadays that gets reasonably successful will get competed out of the market by either other sellers or Amazon itself. The main challenge is discoverability; for a lot of people, websites like Amazon is the first port of call, and people are willing to pay the convenience fee just so they don't have to scour the internet for an alternative. That said, they now have to scour Amazon to find a decent product instead of 'knockoffs' / race-to-the-bottom competitors.
haspok 5y ago
Amazon for bikes or bike parts? I don't understand this, it must be a US thing. Here in Europe, Amazon would be the last place I would go to buy anything bike related. We have _specialized_ large online retailers, like CRC in NI and Bike24 in Germany who are excellent, also tend to ship the same day and actually do care about their customers...
SeanFerree 5y ago
Love it!
bovermyer 5y ago
You know, I imagine the big problem that Amazon purportedly solves is discoverability for producers. I wonder if there's value in creating a website that is just a directory of online stores in various categories.

652 points by nabilhat 5y ago

Do they actually make things or are they just selling branded white-label parts? https://www.ziprecruiter.com/c/PNW-Components-LLC/Jobs https://www.ziprecruiter.com/c/PNW-Components-LLC/Jobs

Matthias247 5y ago
Define "make". Often companies are doing specifications and blueprints, but outsource the actual manufacturing to other companies. I think this would also apply to PNW, since their products (like the seatpost) are afaik not known to be just relabeled versions of other products.
- Eiriksmal 5y ago
  +1. Their droppers are whitelabeled TransX, but the other components appear to have actually been designed by PNW and manufactured by various suppliers in Taiwan like most high quality, high volume bike parts. But they're still a business "making things" in the same way that most other companies that sell consumer products are. I have a Loam lever, a Rainier dropper, and Range stem. They're all excellent parts with tasteful branding. PNW's customer support is excellent, when it comes time to inevitably replace a sagging dropper. The stem's bottom has an unusual design that excited some bike wizards on bikes.stackexchange when I had questions about using stems without spacers. That certainly isn't a whitelabeled, off-the-shelf component. With the state of Amazon being what it is, I would never even have thought to look for bike parts on there. The likelihood of accidentally buying a counterfeit part is way, way too high. I buy all my bike parts direct from the manufacturer, whenever possible. PNW has a nice Shopify site, why give Amazon your money?
PascLeRasc 5y ago
Their dropper posts are rebranded TranzX parts as far as I know, which is supposedly common: https://stravaigingmtb.com/2017/11/27/so-who-the-hell-made-this-dropper-post/ https://stravaigingmtb.com/2017/11/27/so-who-the-hell-made-t... I heard before that Trek does the same thing with their Bontrager posts.
micro_cam 5y ago
They started just with rebranded dropper seat posts you could buy elsewhere but made a name for themselves with excellent customer service and warranty support and reasonable prices even if you could get the same post cheaper elsewhere without the support. Now they have engineered a few unique products you can't get elsewhere though they are all made in asia. Like they make road/gravel style drop style handle bars in uncommon widths.

philistine 5y ago

This is fascinating and a great description to the threats facing Amazon. When you cede responsibility to Amazon that your business requires to perform adequately (in this case it seems to be the ability to match a bike to its compatible parts) than that is a risk for Amazon to lose its place as the internet’s mall if it cannot offer a way to stay relevant. If zero bike parts are available on Amazon today it might become bigger and bigger markets tomorrow, that a company like Shopify is better aligned to serve.

tacker2000 5y ago

This doenst surprise me at all. There are more and more sellers that are frustrated with how amazon deals with them. Amazons top priority is the customer, and thats how they got to this point, but everyone else suffers, from their 3rd party sellers to their suppliers to their own employees. Here is a list of stuff Amazon does: -Anti competitive behaviour on the buy box (Amazon doesnt have the product in stock. You have it, but your offer is still not shown) -Banning sellers for no good reason, and you cant contact anyone helpful -Screwing over their suppliers with Vendor Central, where they buy from you wholesale. They dont pay, they just say the goods were never delivered and dont accept your proof of delivery. I know sellers who are owed over 30k from amazon. -Customers are able to send back items 1 year later. If you dont agree, they can file an “AZ claim”. If you get too manu claims, they ban you. -Support for sellers is the worst combination of overseas call centers using some cookie cutter templates to answer questions. Often you are just copy pasting your question 5 times, until you get somebody with have a brain -Use data from their sellers to create their own products and then force them out of the market -creating huge incentives for chinese sellers which flood and undercut the local sellers Its just a huge behemoth were nobody knows whats going on. In my opinion this company needs to be split up by gov and reigned in. But who knows, maybe more sellers will follow suit and the pressure will be increasing to change things.

at-fates-hands 5y ago
>> Banning sellers for no good reason, and you cant contact anyone helpful. I must be getting old. How did these companies get so massive without any meaningful customer service departments? Amazon, Google, Facebook and many, many others where customer service is not even bothered with, yet people continue to use their products and services.
- theturtletalks 5y ago
  It's because they make it super easy for the customer, but use dark patterns for the sellers. Amazon can afford to lose sellers since more are popping up everyday and willing to sell items for a loss to gain market share. The parent also didn't mention that Amazon has a policy of not allowing sellers to sell their products for a lower price on their own website. If only customers knew how much Amazon is screwing over sellers, they would be wary. Many sellers I know themselves don't shop on Amazon themselves due to this.

TonyTrapp 5y ago

It's so interesting to see how the pandemic hits different countries in different ways. This article talks about struggling bike shops. The truth couldn't be any more different in Germany. Bike shops were run over by customers because so many more people wanted to either go to work by bike instead of public transportation, or they had no work to do so they decided to go biking in their new spare time. Repair shops are super busy, but now there's a shortage in bike parts, too...

zwieback 5y ago
I think that's basically the same situation here in the US, bike shops are super busy but the supply chain can't keep up. I also have to say that most bike shops I've visited aren't that good. They seem to have an over-supply of awkward young sales staff giving middling advice while facing an undersupply of bikes and parts. Also, the constant churn in componentry is not helping.
jetrink 5y ago
It sounds like the bike shops were struggling due to low inventory, not low demand. Anecdotally, that was the case at the bike shops near me in Chicago, which had empty shelves, but also months-long wait lists for their tuneup and repair services. Unfortunately, bike sales are a large part of their revenue.
- lmm 5y ago
  There's long been a mismatch in the bike shop revenue model, where most of the value they add comes from labour but they charge a lot of that via markup on parts rather than directly.
jwagenet 5y ago
> By the start of 2021, Kerson heard of bike shops on the brink of closing down due to such high demand and low inventory. It sounds like shops should have done well, but we’re subject to shortages which lead to purchases at online retailers instead.
yardie 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

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jrd259 5y ago

> After leaving his job in global business development at Amazon, Aaron Kerson used his knowledge of the platform’s sales algorithms to power up his new business. Don't corporations typically have non-compete clauses to prevent an employee from exploiting proprietary knowledge they gained while working for the firm? Would we be supportive of someone who left (e.g.) a small bicycle parts company to help Amazon rule that market?

fossuser 5y ago
In California non-competes are [edit: unenforceable] (it's arguably one of the reasons for Silicon Valley's success). It varies by state though, so not sure about Washington and elsewhere.
- matmatmatmat 5y ago
  Nit: They are unenforcable, but not illegal in themselves: https://www.callahan-law.com/are-non-competes-enforceable-in-california/ https://www.callahan-law.com/are-non-competes-enforceable-in...
  - fossuser 5y ago
    Yep - you're right, edited and fixed.
InitialLastName 5y ago
When he started the company in 2015, presumably he wasn't competing with Amazon (by selling products on their platform that they don't have their own brand of). By now, I'd assume any non-compete that might cover "don't sell products that compete with us" have expired.
tkahnoski 5y ago
Yes... (not a lawyer so grain of salt here) There are three basic tools for IP protection: 1) Copyright - protects outright copying of an IP asset 2) Patent - protects against the reimplementation of the same IP 3) Trade Secret - Similar to patent, but enforcement is trickier especially for software as you have to demonstrate a benefit to it being secret as well as your efforts to keep it secret. Non-competes are more of a blunt instrument and a controversial topic. Amazon is infamous for having them. Typically only hear of companies trying to enforce these at executive level as any enforcement at a lower level can impact recruiting heavily.

jrd259 5y ago

Kerson and his team asked buyers at every retailer who stocks PNW parts to remove them from their Amazon stores too, so that everyone involved could maximize their profits and not undercut each other. IANAL, but is this not collusion or price fixing?

lardo 5y ago
This is pretty much how local bike shops work.
InitialLastName 5y ago
Aren't manufacturers (and branders) normally able to set the minimum advertised prices of their products, in addition to making suggestions (backed by "if you break the rules, we won't sell this to you any more") about how and where retailers can sell and advertise the product?
- ozzythecat 5y ago
  You can set a minimum advertised price I think. That’s why on some sites you don’t get to see the lower price until check out. I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine price fixing laws still apply.

deleted 5y ago

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a-dub 5y ago

amusingly there's nothing particularly new here in terms of the alternatives they're exploring. i used to work in a local bike shop and thought about even doing bike parts e-commerce in the 90s. bicycles and parts have always been a high touch business. manufacturers treat local bike shops like customers, assign reps who visit to ensure merchandising standards and have strict rules regarding pricing to ensure all the shops can survive. it amuses me to read that they're setting that up now as if it's new, as it is how it used to work for a very long time.

scoofy 5y ago

If I recall correctly, Specialized Bikes pulled all their products from Amazon a while ago, pointing to the failing local bike shops eventually hurting the bike business for everyone. Bicycles are not toys. They are vehicles that need maintenance. You can do much of that maintenance yourself if you're a nerd, but the vast majority of cyclists are dependent on local bike shops to sustain the cycling community. The bicycle/parts manufacturers need a large cycling community to sell products to. The large cycling community will have novice and intermediate cyclists that will abandon cycling if their bikes break down. The novice and intermediate cyclist need local bike shops to do maintenance on their bikes at affordable rates. The local bike shops need a revenue stream beyond labor for maintenance to be affordable. Thus, the major bicycle manufacturers need to give a oligopoly status to the local bike shops in order to keep their user base large. As a life long cyclist, I've seen the industry grow and wane, and throughout it all, I've seen the vast majority of people think bicycles are some type of sports-equipment. Decisions like this are one of only a few business models that I can see sustaining the community. I'm actually surprised and optimistic to see the major manufacturer Trek start building their own brick and mortar shops in certain major cities, though I'd prefer to see this happen through a major cooperative between the various brands. If you care about making cycling a serious, sustainable transit alternative, we need to maintain the entire ecosystem of ridership, which means the race to the bottom on amazon must be stopped.

namdnay 5y ago
> The novice and intermediate cyclist need local bike shops to do maintenance on their bikes at affordable rates. The local bike shops need a revenue stream beyond labor for maintenance to be affordable. I don’t agree with this reasoning. Why wouldn’t maintenance be priced at the true rate? In what way is it better for consumers to overpay for their equipment in order to underpay for maintenance?
- ljf 5y ago
  I didn't read it to say that, just that it is very hard to be a mechanic only shop - they also need to sell something else to be a profitable business. In London there a few mechanics/coffee shops that stayed profitable that way. If more people cycled I'm sure you would see more 'just mechanics' but in most places they can't afford to be that.

Loic 5y ago

Ortlieb[0], the very appreciated maker of bicycle bags, is not selling over Amazon. They are selling online, but your order/payment is sent directly to a local shop delivering to you (in Germany). I really like it. Some years ago, Amazon was pushing "Ortlieb bag" adverts on Google to redirect to Amazon where the bags were not to be found and was sued. Amazon lost[1]. [0]: https://www.ortlieb.com https://www.ortlieb.com [1]: https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/ortlieb-gegen-amazon-fahrradtaschenhersteller-gewinnt-prozess-a-1278894.html https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/ortlieb-gegen-am...

Symbiote 5y ago
I was very impressed with Ortlieb when I was able to buy a replacement part, for about €3, for a 15 year old bag. I will be a lifelong customer, but the bags are so durable I might never need another for myself.
- GreenWatermelon 5y ago
  You can still buy some for your whole family. They might also make other products.
progbits 5y ago
Similarly Peak Design (a well respected brand of quality camera gear including backpacks) is not selling on Amazon. See recent HN thread [0] about Amazon making a cheap knock-off of their product. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26338525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26338525

hprotagonist 5y ago

Good. PNW bikes (and treefort and some others) do good stuff. At this point selling on amazon makes me trust you less — i’ve gotten way too many fake parts accidentally over the years to trust them with.

silicon2401 5y ago

Personally I find local bike and book shops to be excellent alternatives to Amazon. For tech stuff I go to Best Buy where possible (not exactly a local shop, but at least it's still competition for Amazon). Nice to see the suppliers themselves pull out of Amazon.

jonahhorowitz 5y ago
Best Buy is great for electronics. They have control over their supply chain and you don't have to deal with counterfeits.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Agreed. They even offer free 2-day shipping just like Amazon (at least past a certain price point or something) or let you pick up in store, which I've preferred in certain cases where I want to minimize the time a fragile purchase spends shipping. My one gripe has been that they put a huge sale sticker right on the box of the animal crossing edition switch I bought. At least it was on the side and not front and center, but it would've been nice to not do that. Adding on to the Amazon alternative, Target is also great. I've happily purchased many electronics, home supplies, etc from them. Costco too, though they sell a different kind of inventory. Again, not quite mom and pops, but IMO anything that's not Amazon or Walmart is still an improvement.
mym1990 5y ago
As an additional benefit, local bike shops and book shops also usually have some pretty cool people working there!
HWR_14 5y ago
I went to a manufacturer's website recently to buy something direct (cut out the middle man, better for everyone, yay!) The price was double that on Amazon. And they charged shipping. I get that bringing wearhousing in house has to cost more money, but it was just strange to see that dramatic a discount.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

JohnFen 5y ago

I love this trend. I stopped using Amazon last year, and I'm very interested in doing business with companies who chose likewise.

Kaibeezy 5y ago
It’s a start. See also “Parallel Polis”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis And, Havel’s The Power of the Powerless: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless

mariushn 5y ago

Related trivia: Jeff Bezos's father was a local bike shop owner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP80jo1_UgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP80jo1_UgU

greenie_beans 5y ago
wow! the irony is rich. i wonder how amazon impacted his small business?

dkhenry 5y ago

I am happy the parts company is ditching Amazon, but its so much more important for us consumers to ditch amazon. I have cut my amazon purchases down to only 16 total items this year so far ( down from ~50 in 2020 ) and I am now only ordering from Amazon as a last option when I cant find what I want anywhere else. That brief glimpse of the Amazon future where all stores are shut down, and we can only ever buy things online, and everyone is an amazon serf was such a wakeup call as to what we were heading towards. I just hope enough people can jump ship to keep a functioning non amazon centric supply chain.

Rapzid 5y ago
I like Amazon and online shopping; won't ditch any time soon and don't think it's important for people to do so. The local businesses I was worried about going under were restaurants and others in the food/service industry(would lump experience in there as well; the zoo, botanical garden, museums, and etc).
- jungturk 5y ago
  > don't think it's important for people to do so Is that because you don't believe in the negative externalities or because you think they're worth the convenience?
  - ozzythecat 5y ago
    The narrative I hear is that Amazon is destroying businesses. The issue I have is that this isn’t really true. Here’s an anecdote. I drive 20 minutes to the mall. After finding parking and getting into a shoe store, there’s no one really there to help me. Once they get around to me, they don’t have my size. And it’s also apparent the person working there has no interest in helping. Whether they have my size or whether I found what I was looking for is basically not their problem. So I drive at least 40 minutes round trip, plus the hassle of parking, finding the store in the mall, and waiting on someone to help me. Now my time is valuable. I lost my time. I paid for gas. I also put miles on my car. And depending on the day, I also had to deal with traffic. IMO businesses refuse to compete. If Amazon is doing it better than them, then hats off to Amazon. If a business is doing better than Amazon, then I’ll go with that business. IMO the “negative externalities” puts blame on Amazon while pretending like these other stores even try to compete. Btw this binary view of the world where Amazon is bad and others are good (or vice versa) seems to be a very American thing.

pizzaknife 5y ago

i prefer to work on my bicycle. This is both a privilege and a luxury and i recognize such. PNW components are wonderful. I shop LBS for tools and "need it today" parts. I do not find value in paying the majority of bike mechanics (ive been scraping my shins religiously for 32yrs and part of what gives me confidence in jumping them tens of feet into the arm at the ripe age of midlife). I do, however, find value in shop talk and buying the right tools / components (even if special ordered through the shops). Its a mixed bag of bolts

FrameworkFred 5y ago

I suspect this is a trend that'll continue as market buyers and sellers realize Amazon is a poor fit for certain of their activities. I already avoid Amazon as a consumer when the brand, quality, or delivery date really counts. But I also avoid Lowes when I'm buying appliances for tenant properties because they can't be relied upon to call before they deliver. And I don't buy from Harbor Freight Tools when equipment failure might be fatal because some things I've bought there haven't survived their first use. But those places have saved me a ton of money over the years when their model has worked to my benefit, just like Amazon has made a vast improvement in certain areas of my life. I suspect companies like PNC are coming to similar realizations about Amazon as they see that their returns (or the implications on their reputations, or their confidence in continued sales) paint a picture that's less attractive than pursuing alternatives.

IncRnd 5y ago

From the article: "PNW wasn’t the only business growing tired of Amazon. Kerson and his team asked buyers at every retailer who stocks PNW parts to remove them from their Amazon stores too, so that everyone involved could maximize their profits and not undercut each other." ... “We set up these calls and we were not expecting them to go very well,” says Marshall, “As soon as we started talking about it the buyers were really excited.” From the FTC: "Price fixing is an agreement (written, verbal, or inferred from conduct) among competitors that raises, lowers, or stabilizes prices or competitive terms ... Price fixing relates not only to prices, but also to other terms that affect prices to consumers, such as shipping fees, warranties, discount programs, or financing rates. Antitrust scrutiny may occur when competitors discuss the following topics: ..., Capacity, Identity of customers, ... Defendants may not justify their behavior by arguing that the prices were reasonable to consumers, were necessary to avoid cut-throat competition, or stimulated competition." [1] Is there a lawer who can say if that was price fixing? [1] https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...

r00fus 5y ago
Is avoiding a major adversary/predatory channel considered price-fixing?
- Wohlf 5y ago
  Yes, if the effect/methods is the same.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dstaley 5y ago
IANAL, but I think this would qualify as a resale price maintenance agreement[1], which is legal at a federal level and in most (but not all!) states. I guess it really depends on what exactly "not undercut each other" entailed. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/resale_price_maintenance_agreements https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/resale_price_maintenance_agr...

tomaszs 5y ago

I was considering to use Amazon Fulfillment for Summon The JSON decks. However, it occurred to be very expensive. My customers are fine to wait a couple of days. They can also choose fast manufacturing, to get decks faster. I don't fell I miss anything by not selling or fulfilling by Amazon.

samstave 5y ago

I've biked THOUSANDS of miles in the last years - growing up in Tahoe biking all through the 80s... Heck this month alone I have biked nearly 500 miles (26 miles a day, 29" mtn.... Anyway, Have you dealt with a lot of "local bike shops" -- I have dealt with too many to count. Lets look at a few pros and cons of "local bike shops": Pro: -- Support a local business -- Go in and talk to an actual person? (maybe) Cons: -- Many gear-head bike shop employees (specifically the mechanics) have a BOFH attitude, are gruff, rarely have time to talk - generally have an attitude. -- Many of the local shops are now pushing bikes that are fucking $10,000 -- I looked at a bike in Mikes Bikes just last week - and it was $15,000 -- Gear selection is limited to a couple brands, and prices are no better than amazon -- Bike shops aren't like starbucks - they are fucking far apart. -- I have biked DAILY for over a decade. I have gotten HUNDREDS of flats - and I always carry 2 tubes with me (yes, I want to go tubeless, just havent done so yet) - getting tubes off amazon is ideal. Having to have to drive very far to go buy a tube is a non-starter Local bike shops currently have shitty inventories because of the supply shortage from china - and to have to again drive to the bike shop to find out that their inventory is low, that the lowest end bike is $5,000 and they want to sell every garment for >$50 with stupid logos and printing all over them to show that you, the customer-turned-billboard are "serious about your biking" -- Having to stand near too many weekend-road-warriors who really don't need anything but want to instead show you how much money they threw into their entire kit.... -- Having to deal with upsell in certain cases -- Having to get blank stares with questions about anything outside of what the store actually sells and too many answers of "gee, I don't know" --- Yeah, While I hate Amazon's monopoly as much as everyone -- this does NOT make all local bike shops even. Yes, I have met some awesome ones - not not enough to where every bike shop nearest me is a good one in every single city I have loved in all over the greater bay area all the way up to Tahoe City...

Finnucane 5y ago
I’ve biked daily for a decade too, and I’ve not had hundreds of flats. What kind of crap tires are you buying? Why would you drive to buy tubes if you have a bike?
- samstave 5y ago

mtnGoat 5y ago

fact of the matter is... if you are a cyclist, amazon is definitely not the place to look for bike parts. sadly, all the SEO spammers only advertise amazon affiliate links so you'd think amazon sells decent bike parts, but you'd be wrong. IMHO google should ban any website heavily linking to amazon affiliate program.

Lamad123 5y ago

You can live very happily without using Amazon!! I have barely used them in the last couple years and I've been fine!

SevenSigs 5y ago

nice that they can afford this.

streamofdigits 5y ago

If these are the growing pains of a "bike economy" this would be a good thing. In large parts of the world bikes could and should become the first choice for mobility and there needs to be a healthy ecosystem to support this transition. From (more) local manufacturing, to distribution, servicing, upgrading and eventually recycling(pun).

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Probably smart; anything you put on Amazon nowadays that gets reasonably successful will get competed out of the market by either other sellers or Amazon itself. The main challenge is discoverability; for a lot of people, websites like Amazon is the first port of call, and people are willing to pay the convenience fee just so they don't have to scour the internet for an alternative. That said, they now have to scour Amazon to find a decent product instead of 'knockoffs' / race-to-the-bottom competitors.

haspok 5y ago

Amazon for bikes or bike parts? I don't understand this, it must be a US thing. Here in Europe, Amazon would be the last place I would go to buy anything bike related. We have _specialized_ large online retailers, like CRC in NI and Bike24 in Germany who are excellent, also tend to ship the same day and actually do care about their customers...

SeanFerree 5y ago

Love it!

bovermyer 5y ago

You know, I imagine the big problem that Amazon purportedly solves is discoverability for producers. I wonder if there's value in creating a website that is just a directory of online stores in various categories.