5 ms·

An entirely different question that HN would prefer not be asked...

commandlinefan 5y ago
I've spent the entirety of my 30-year programming career working with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor. The "skills" in question (that I have as well)... don't seem that hard to acquire. Yet I believe the employers when they say they literally can't find Americans who have them. Either I'm seriously underestimating how hard it is to acquire said skills (and by extension undervaluing myself, by a lot), or there's something else going on.
- vsskanth 5y ago
  My guess - Americans with relevant skills already have jobs they like and are in high demand, and the ones who can up skill into programming positions are probably working all the time just to survive. Foreign workers usually already have a relevant degree or experience (knowing atleast the basics) and don't have as much student debt.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kesselvon 5y ago
  H1B labor isn't mobile, so you can underpay and treat them how you like. It's like when manufacturing complains about labor and skill shortages but the wages are terrible. When you need labor and can't find it, lots of times its just that employers aren't meeting the market rate for said labor. Hence their desire to get it on the cheap via importation or outsourcing.
  - darth_avocado 5y ago
    That is actually not true. SOME H1B labor isn't mobile (mostly people outsourcing firms), but people on H1B change jobs whenever they like. At least that's the norm in tech industry.
    - sg47 5y ago
      That's not at all true. People on H1B cannot change jobs easily. They have to go through the visa transfer process and hope nothing goes wrong with the process. They have to make sure their current employer does not get wind of the job change and doesn't fire them during the transfer process. They have to ensure that the new employer can process their green card application. Lots of nuances involved. It's a serious source of stress for a lot of highly skilled H1B engineers
      - random42_ 5y ago
        There is no such thing as visa transfer process. When you’re switching jobs on an H1B you follow the same process as if it were a new application, with the exception it can be done any time in the year and the visa cap doesn’t apply.
        sg47 5y ago
        I meant to say H1B transfer process. Previously, it used to be straightforward but the Trump administration started treating them as new applications and doled out RFEs (Request for Evidence) willy-nilly. The current administration has scrapped that but it's still a laborious, nerve-wracking process.
        random42_ 5y ago
        Oh I got that you meant H1B transfer. But the thing is that it was never a transfer, it was just a new application. I did it in 2011 and it was exactly the same process (I got no RFEs but a friend that got an RFE in his first application got another one when doing his second). It was indeed harder during Trump’s administration, and I even know a person that got his second application denied and couldn’t change jobs.
        darth_avocado 5y ago
        That is because you call it H1B transfer, but in reality it is a new application for a new job position, just that you can do it any time and not wait for the lottery. RFEs are part of the process, if your supporting documents don't establish that you have the qualifications for the new role, you need to provide supporting evidence. It has always existed, regardless of any administration. Also, because it is a new application, your old one does not expire, so you can always continue your current job till you sort things out. And you can always file a third application with a third employer if things don't work out with your RFE. Changing jobs isn't as crazy as people make it out to be, unless you really don't meet the minimum. PS: Been doing it for more than a decade without any problems
  - geraneum 5y ago
    There’s something that is genuinely confusing for me in this argument. Maybe you can help me understand better. If you’re a truly high skilled worker, then US is not the only place that you can have a good life in therefore if you’re underpaid, you go somewhere else. On the other hand if your skill is not on par, then why would the companies go through the trouble of H1B and hire you while they can hire low skilled domestic labor with lower wage demand (not implying that domestic labor is low skilled, just pointing out that it’s available)
    - harpratap 5y ago
      1. For a couple of decades, US was the only country paying high salaries. Why would you go through the entire process of immigration if you still end up being middle class in a foreign country? Upper middle class or higher is more attractive 2. Immigration is a Network effect. You would prefer a country where you already have acquaintances, friends or family over starting your social life from scratch. 3. Soft power plays a huge role. In many societies being able to go to US has much higher prestige than say Germany, Netherlands or Japan. So many people don't see immigrating to these countries as an actual upgrade in social status back home even if the life might be better
      - jltsiren 5y ago
        1. People who stay in their home countries often make the salary argument, but it's not as common among those who actually emigrate. The availability of interesting jobs is a more likely reason for high-skilled immigrants. For example, the UK used to be a popular immigration destination for EU citizens before Brexit, even though the standard of living was often lower than in their home countries. 2. The network effect is more important for low-skilled immigrants and those planning to make the destination country their new home. High-skilled immigrants typically have an expat mentality. They leave the people they know behind and move to a new place for a specific opportunity. Their country of residence is not their home but a place they happen to be living in at the moment. They are also prepared to move again, should new opportunities arise. 3. The prestige argument is also more important for low-skilled immigrants. For high-skilled immigrants, a more likely reaction is your friends wondering how you can put up with the bureaucratic BS of living as an immigrant in the US. (As an example, because H-1B workers are formally visitors instead of immigrants, most of them are currently unable to visit their friends and family in their home countries.)
  - rodgerd 5y ago
    This is true up and down the market. Here in New Zealand we've had a lot of squealing about "shortages in essential skills" from, I shit you not, cafe owners, bottle shop owners, you name it. We have restaurants who charge, I am not making this up, $300/head claiming that if they can't import cheap waiters paid $18/hour they'll go out of business. The sad thing is that workers - and we see this in this very thread - end up attacking immigrant workers (who are merely trying to improve their lives), rather than employers who are exploiting workers on employer-tied work visas (both in terms of up-front pay, but often in terms of kickbacks and the like) to drive down local pay and conditions. The answer would be that if there is a genuine labour shortage in local skills, the work permit should be in that industry/skill set, not employer tied. That would allow migrant workers to better their lot (and, given that many support extended family on remittences, whole communities) while allowing them to avoid being exploited by agencies or shitty employers; it would also avoid migrant labour being mis-used to depress local terms and conditions. Unfortunately it seems easier to convince people to vote for anti-immigrant, often bigoted, political platforms than to convince workers to see their common interests.
- frozenport 5y ago
  >> with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor This number is too high, even if you include 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have greencards/citizenship. Did you work for a company that underpaid its employees by only hiring foreigners?
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    Ten in a row, apparently.
- vjust 5y ago
  > there's something else going on. There is the network effect in hiring - as in, referrals from already existing employees, who are H1-B (or once were H1B). If I was once a H1B , and my employer is looking for a Software Engineer, there is a larger network (compared to my American colleague) of possible referrals that can originate from me. This results in a higher likelihood of H1-B getting a job offer - in spite of the higher documentation and process. Company hiring policies have usually leaned towards "ready made" candidates - candidates who know Programming Language V1.4 (say) and Web Framework XYZ - H1Bs are more motivated and better prepared with these exact requirements compared to American domestic/citizen candidates. So, on paper a H1B checks all the boxes. In some cases (or many cases depending on point of view) these paper qualifications don't transfer to reality. Also hiring of Grad Students on Student Visas - 75% of Grad Students in STEM are usually foreigners, these enter into the H1B pool (after 2 years of CPT visa).
dang 5y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. HN has discussed this question frequently and at length for many years. (Often not very well, but this is the internet, and that's a different issue.)

I've spent the entirety of my 30-year programming career working with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor. The "skills" in question (that I have as well)... don't seem that hard to acquire. Yet I believe the employers when they say they literally can't find Americans who have them. Either I'm seriously underestimating how hard it is to acquire said skills (and by extension undervaluing myself, by a lot), or there's something else going on.

vsskanth 5y ago
My guess - Americans with relevant skills already have jobs they like and are in high demand, and the ones who can up skill into programming positions are probably working all the time just to survive. Foreign workers usually already have a relevant degree or experience (knowing atleast the basics) and don't have as much student debt.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kesselvon 5y ago
H1B labor isn't mobile, so you can underpay and treat them how you like. It's like when manufacturing complains about labor and skill shortages but the wages are terrible. When you need labor and can't find it, lots of times its just that employers aren't meeting the market rate for said labor. Hence their desire to get it on the cheap via importation or outsourcing.
- darth_avocado 5y ago
  That is actually not true. SOME H1B labor isn't mobile (mostly people outsourcing firms), but people on H1B change jobs whenever they like. At least that's the norm in tech industry.
  - sg47 5y ago
    That's not at all true. People on H1B cannot change jobs easily. They have to go through the visa transfer process and hope nothing goes wrong with the process. They have to make sure their current employer does not get wind of the job change and doesn't fire them during the transfer process. They have to ensure that the new employer can process their green card application. Lots of nuances involved. It's a serious source of stress for a lot of highly skilled H1B engineers
    - random42_ 5y ago
      There is no such thing as visa transfer process. When you’re switching jobs on an H1B you follow the same process as if it were a new application, with the exception it can be done any time in the year and the visa cap doesn’t apply.
      - sg47 5y ago
        I meant to say H1B transfer process. Previously, it used to be straightforward but the Trump administration started treating them as new applications and doled out RFEs (Request for Evidence) willy-nilly. The current administration has scrapped that but it's still a laborious, nerve-wracking process.
        random42_ 5y ago
        Oh I got that you meant H1B transfer. But the thing is that it was never a transfer, it was just a new application. I did it in 2011 and it was exactly the same process (I got no RFEs but a friend that got an RFE in his first application got another one when doing his second). It was indeed harder during Trump’s administration, and I even know a person that got his second application denied and couldn’t change jobs.
        darth_avocado 5y ago
        That is because you call it H1B transfer, but in reality it is a new application for a new job position, just that you can do it any time and not wait for the lottery. RFEs are part of the process, if your supporting documents don't establish that you have the qualifications for the new role, you need to provide supporting evidence. It has always existed, regardless of any administration. Also, because it is a new application, your old one does not expire, so you can always continue your current job till you sort things out. And you can always file a third application with a third employer if things don't work out with your RFE. Changing jobs isn't as crazy as people make it out to be, unless you really don't meet the minimum. PS: Been doing it for more than a decade without any problems
- geraneum 5y ago
  There’s something that is genuinely confusing for me in this argument. Maybe you can help me understand better. If you’re a truly high skilled worker, then US is not the only place that you can have a good life in therefore if you’re underpaid, you go somewhere else. On the other hand if your skill is not on par, then why would the companies go through the trouble of H1B and hire you while they can hire low skilled domestic labor with lower wage demand (not implying that domestic labor is low skilled, just pointing out that it’s available)
  - harpratap 5y ago
    1. For a couple of decades, US was the only country paying high salaries. Why would you go through the entire process of immigration if you still end up being middle class in a foreign country? Upper middle class or higher is more attractive 2. Immigration is a Network effect. You would prefer a country where you already have acquaintances, friends or family over starting your social life from scratch. 3. Soft power plays a huge role. In many societies being able to go to US has much higher prestige than say Germany, Netherlands or Japan. So many people don't see immigrating to these countries as an actual upgrade in social status back home even if the life might be better
    - jltsiren 5y ago
      1. People who stay in their home countries often make the salary argument, but it's not as common among those who actually emigrate. The availability of interesting jobs is a more likely reason for high-skilled immigrants. For example, the UK used to be a popular immigration destination for EU citizens before Brexit, even though the standard of living was often lower than in their home countries. 2. The network effect is more important for low-skilled immigrants and those planning to make the destination country their new home. High-skilled immigrants typically have an expat mentality. They leave the people they know behind and move to a new place for a specific opportunity. Their country of residence is not their home but a place they happen to be living in at the moment. They are also prepared to move again, should new opportunities arise. 3. The prestige argument is also more important for low-skilled immigrants. For high-skilled immigrants, a more likely reaction is your friends wondering how you can put up with the bureaucratic BS of living as an immigrant in the US. (As an example, because H-1B workers are formally visitors instead of immigrants, most of them are currently unable to visit their friends and family in their home countries.)
- rodgerd 5y ago
  This is true up and down the market. Here in New Zealand we've had a lot of squealing about "shortages in essential skills" from, I shit you not, cafe owners, bottle shop owners, you name it. We have restaurants who charge, I am not making this up, $300/head claiming that if they can't import cheap waiters paid $18/hour they'll go out of business. The sad thing is that workers - and we see this in this very thread - end up attacking immigrant workers (who are merely trying to improve their lives), rather than employers who are exploiting workers on employer-tied work visas (both in terms of up-front pay, but often in terms of kickbacks and the like) to drive down local pay and conditions. The answer would be that if there is a genuine labour shortage in local skills, the work permit should be in that industry/skill set, not employer tied. That would allow migrant workers to better their lot (and, given that many support extended family on remittences, whole communities) while allowing them to avoid being exploited by agencies or shitty employers; it would also avoid migrant labour being mis-used to depress local terms and conditions. Unfortunately it seems easier to convince people to vote for anti-immigrant, often bigoted, political platforms than to convince workers to see their common interests.
frozenport 5y ago
>> with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor This number is too high, even if you include 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have greencards/citizenship. Did you work for a company that underpaid its employees by only hiring foreigners?
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  Ten in a row, apparently.
vjust 5y ago
> there's something else going on. There is the network effect in hiring - as in, referrals from already existing employees, who are H1-B (or once were H1B). If I was once a H1B , and my employer is looking for a Software Engineer, there is a larger network (compared to my American colleague) of possible referrals that can originate from me. This results in a higher likelihood of H1-B getting a job offer - in spite of the higher documentation and process. Company hiring policies have usually leaned towards "ready made" candidates - candidates who know Programming Language V1.4 (say) and Web Framework XYZ - H1Bs are more motivated and better prepared with these exact requirements compared to American domestic/citizen candidates. So, on paper a H1B checks all the boxes. In some cases (or many cases depending on point of view) these paper qualifications don't transfer to reality. Also hiring of Grad Students on Student Visas - 75% of Grad Students in STEM are usually foreigners, these enter into the H1B pool (after 2 years of CPT visa).

dang 5y ago

Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. HN has discussed this question frequently and at length for many years. (Often not very well, but this is the internet, and that's a different issue.)