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Practice that reduces wages for labor makes business more profitable. That is an entirely different question than if that is better on the whole for society.

linksnapzz 5y ago
An entirely different question that HN would prefer not be asked...
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  I've spent the entirety of my 30-year programming career working with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor. The "skills" in question (that I have as well)... don't seem that hard to acquire. Yet I believe the employers when they say they literally can't find Americans who have them. Either I'm seriously underestimating how hard it is to acquire said skills (and by extension undervaluing myself, by a lot), or there's something else going on.
  - vsskanth 5y ago
    My guess - Americans with relevant skills already have jobs they like and are in high demand, and the ones who can up skill into programming positions are probably working all the time just to survive. Foreign workers usually already have a relevant degree or experience (knowing atleast the basics) and don't have as much student debt.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kesselvon 5y ago
    H1B labor isn't mobile, so you can underpay and treat them how you like. It's like when manufacturing complains about labor and skill shortages but the wages are terrible. When you need labor and can't find it, lots of times its just that employers aren't meeting the market rate for said labor. Hence their desire to get it on the cheap via importation or outsourcing.
    - darth_avocado 5y ago
      That is actually not true. SOME H1B labor isn't mobile (mostly people outsourcing firms), but people on H1B change jobs whenever they like. At least that's the norm in tech industry.
      - sg47 5y ago
        That's not at all true. People on H1B cannot change jobs easily. They have to go through the visa transfer process and hope nothing goes wrong with the process. They have to make sure their current employer does not get wind of the job change and doesn't fire them during the transfer process. They have to ensure that the new employer can process their green card application. Lots of nuances involved. It's a serious source of stress for a lot of highly skilled H1B engineers
        random42_ 5y ago
        There is no such thing as visa transfer process. When you’re switching jobs on an H1B you follow the same process as if it were a new application, with the exception it can be done any time in the year and the visa cap doesn’t apply.
        sg47 5y ago
        I meant to say H1B transfer process. Previously, it used to be straightforward but the Trump administration started treating them as new applications and doled out RFEs (Request for Evidence) willy-nilly. The current administration has scrapped that but it's still a laborious, nerve-wracking process.
        random42_ 5y ago
        Oh I got that you meant H1B transfer. But the thing is that it was never a transfer, it was just a new application. I did it in 2011 and it was exactly the same process (I got no RFEs but a friend that got an RFE in his first application got another one when doing his second). It was indeed harder during Trump’s administration, and I even know a person that got his second application denied and couldn’t change jobs.
  - frozenport 5y ago
    >> with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor This number is too high, even if you include 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have greencards/citizenship. Did you work for a company that underpaid its employees by only hiring foreigners?
    - commandlinefan 5y ago
      Ten in a row, apparently.
  - vjust 5y ago
    > there's something else going on. There is the network effect in hiring - as in, referrals from already existing employees, who are H1-B (or once were H1B). If I was once a H1B , and my employer is looking for a Software Engineer, there is a larger network (compared to my American colleague) of possible referrals that can originate from me. This results in a higher likelihood of H1-B getting a job offer - in spite of the higher documentation and process. Company hiring policies have usually leaned towards "ready made" candidates - candidates who know Programming Language V1.4 (say) and Web Framework XYZ - H1Bs are more motivated and better prepared with these exact requirements compared to American domestic/citizen candidates. So, on paper a H1B checks all the boxes. In some cases (or many cases depending on point of view) these paper qualifications don't transfer to reality. Also hiring of Grad Students on Student Visas - 75% of Grad Students in STEM are usually foreigners, these enter into the H1B pool (after 2 years of CPT visa).
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. HN has discussed this question frequently and at length for many years. (Often not very well, but this is the internet, and that's a different issue.)
darth_avocado 5y ago
I know there is a substantial pool of companies that uses the "consulting" formula and brings in cheap H1B labor, but H1B is a very broad Umbrella that also includes very highly skilled workers (with PhDs), doctors, etc. I'm a hiring manager in one of the big tech companies and let me tell you, H1B labor is NOT cheap. We not only have to pay them market rates, but a lot of foreign nationals with specialized skills are getting paid more than market average (it's part of the process that DOL enforces to make sure we don't abuse H1B). I think the study references "startups", so there is a chance that it is biased, but within that bias, accurate.
- sg47 5y ago
  But you get to retain them for longer since the switching cost is high.
- treyfitty 5y ago
  Look at credit card or marginalized finance departments. They get around the "we must pay market rates for H1B" by depressing the wages for the rest of their employees, thereby justifying the "market rate." - AmEx - Mastercard - JPMorgan - Citi H1B Labor might not be cheap if you're truly innovating, but let me tell you- there's a reason why credit card companies pay so little across the board, and it's no coincidence that they rely heavily on H1B labor.
- walshemj 5y ago
  But most are not theirs a difference between a transplant surgeon with a PHD and some one whos ground out a CS degree and memorized a lot of leet code.
- SouthAmericanTA 5y ago
  Creating a throwaway because I don't want this to follow my profile (which identifies me). I'm one of these high-skilled foreigners (phd, 5 years experience in applied ML). I make market rate salary in local currency (~35k USD/year) plus substantial bonuses (75~90k USD/year). I work for a major corp, and I think at least a couple dozen folks make similar money with similar experience. I'm not posting to brag; just to contextualize (and agree with parent) that, yeah, maybe that money would hire a recent grad in California and gets my phd+exp here, but I wouldn't say we're "cheap" I know you're discussing H1Bs and I'm talking remote work - just feel like it's worth poiting out that the same set of people fill both roles; so if remote salaries are X I can't see how you could pay less than X to a H1B. Why would I move to a much higher COL for same/less money? I mean, maybe some folks for the express purpose of leaving their country, but still - remote work should push H1B salaries up for skilled foreigners, right?

linksnapzz 5y ago

An entirely different question that HN would prefer not be asked...

commandlinefan 5y ago
I've spent the entirety of my 30-year programming career working with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor. The "skills" in question (that I have as well)... don't seem that hard to acquire. Yet I believe the employers when they say they literally can't find Americans who have them. Either I'm seriously underestimating how hard it is to acquire said skills (and by extension undervaluing myself, by a lot), or there's something else going on.
- vsskanth 5y ago
  My guess - Americans with relevant skills already have jobs they like and are in high demand, and the ones who can up skill into programming positions are probably working all the time just to survive. Foreign workers usually already have a relevant degree or experience (knowing atleast the basics) and don't have as much student debt.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kesselvon 5y ago
  H1B labor isn't mobile, so you can underpay and treat them how you like. It's like when manufacturing complains about labor and skill shortages but the wages are terrible. When you need labor and can't find it, lots of times its just that employers aren't meeting the market rate for said labor. Hence their desire to get it on the cheap via importation or outsourcing.
  - darth_avocado 5y ago
    That is actually not true. SOME H1B labor isn't mobile (mostly people outsourcing firms), but people on H1B change jobs whenever they like. At least that's the norm in tech industry.
    - sg47 5y ago
      That's not at all true. People on H1B cannot change jobs easily. They have to go through the visa transfer process and hope nothing goes wrong with the process. They have to make sure their current employer does not get wind of the job change and doesn't fire them during the transfer process. They have to ensure that the new employer can process their green card application. Lots of nuances involved. It's a serious source of stress for a lot of highly skilled H1B engineers
      - random42_ 5y ago
        There is no such thing as visa transfer process. When you’re switching jobs on an H1B you follow the same process as if it were a new application, with the exception it can be done any time in the year and the visa cap doesn’t apply.
        sg47 5y ago
        I meant to say H1B transfer process. Previously, it used to be straightforward but the Trump administration started treating them as new applications and doled out RFEs (Request for Evidence) willy-nilly. The current administration has scrapped that but it's still a laborious, nerve-wracking process.
        random42_ 5y ago
        Oh I got that you meant H1B transfer. But the thing is that it was never a transfer, it was just a new application. I did it in 2011 and it was exactly the same process (I got no RFEs but a friend that got an RFE in his first application got another one when doing his second). It was indeed harder during Trump’s administration, and I even know a person that got his second application denied and couldn’t change jobs.
- frozenport 5y ago
  >> with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor This number is too high, even if you include 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have greencards/citizenship. Did you work for a company that underpaid its employees by only hiring foreigners?
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    Ten in a row, apparently.
- vjust 5y ago
  > there's something else going on. There is the network effect in hiring - as in, referrals from already existing employees, who are H1-B (or once were H1B). If I was once a H1B , and my employer is looking for a Software Engineer, there is a larger network (compared to my American colleague) of possible referrals that can originate from me. This results in a higher likelihood of H1-B getting a job offer - in spite of the higher documentation and process. Company hiring policies have usually leaned towards "ready made" candidates - candidates who know Programming Language V1.4 (say) and Web Framework XYZ - H1Bs are more motivated and better prepared with these exact requirements compared to American domestic/citizen candidates. So, on paper a H1B checks all the boxes. In some cases (or many cases depending on point of view) these paper qualifications don't transfer to reality. Also hiring of Grad Students on Student Visas - 75% of Grad Students in STEM are usually foreigners, these enter into the H1B pool (after 2 years of CPT visa).
dang 5y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. HN has discussed this question frequently and at length for many years. (Often not very well, but this is the internet, and that's a different issue.)

darth_avocado 5y ago

I know there is a substantial pool of companies that uses the "consulting" formula and brings in cheap H1B labor, but H1B is a very broad Umbrella that also includes very highly skilled workers (with PhDs), doctors, etc. I'm a hiring manager in one of the big tech companies and let me tell you, H1B labor is NOT cheap. We not only have to pay them market rates, but a lot of foreign nationals with specialized skills are getting paid more than market average (it's part of the process that DOL enforces to make sure we don't abuse H1B). I think the study references "startups", so there is a chance that it is biased, but within that bias, accurate.

sg47 5y ago
But you get to retain them for longer since the switching cost is high.
treyfitty 5y ago
Look at credit card or marginalized finance departments. They get around the "we must pay market rates for H1B" by depressing the wages for the rest of their employees, thereby justifying the "market rate." - AmEx - Mastercard - JPMorgan - Citi H1B Labor might not be cheap if you're truly innovating, but let me tell you- there's a reason why credit card companies pay so little across the board, and it's no coincidence that they rely heavily on H1B labor.
walshemj 5y ago
But most are not theirs a difference between a transplant surgeon with a PHD and some one whos ground out a CS degree and memorized a lot of leet code.
SouthAmericanTA 5y ago
Creating a throwaway because I don't want this to follow my profile (which identifies me). I'm one of these high-skilled foreigners (phd, 5 years experience in applied ML). I make market rate salary in local currency (~35k USD/year) plus substantial bonuses (75~90k USD/year). I work for a major corp, and I think at least a couple dozen folks make similar money with similar experience. I'm not posting to brag; just to contextualize (and agree with parent) that, yeah, maybe that money would hire a recent grad in California and gets my phd+exp here, but I wouldn't say we're "cheap" I know you're discussing H1Bs and I'm talking remote work - just feel like it's worth poiting out that the same set of people fill both roles; so if remote salaries are X I can't see how you could pay less than X to a H1B. Why would I move to a much higher COL for same/less money? I mean, maybe some folks for the express purpose of leaving their country, but still - remote work should push H1B salaries up for skilled foreigners, right?