5 ms·

The U.S. ignored corruption within the Afghan government. Did that lead to fall?

16 points by nwatson 5y ago

ddingus 5y ago
The US currently operates amidst legal corruption. And that is OK, until the citizens say it is not and mean it, just to be clear here. That imparts a strong bias that very likely marginalizes our government ability to assess the overall effectiveness and ability to function in other governments.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  I told a visitor from Japan that we don't have bribery scandals because we legalized bribery with our election financing system.
  - aweiland 5y ago
    Yeah, you really only see them at the state and local level.
slownews45 5y ago
Yay - this is actually a key issue. If you've traveled internationally you QUICKLY get a sense of how folks feel about their govt. Corrupt govt? Everyone is cheating that govt as well. So if you are a cop, your bosses are taking your pay, they are in bed with XXX and YYY, then yeah, forget ANY chance of clean policing - "spot fines" here we come and services to highest bidder.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  I find it hard to image paying off a cop to avoid a speeding ticket in the US although I know in any place where gang activity is widespread there are cops on the take. On the other hand I think corruption is widespread at the upper levels in Albany and Washington.
  - jdsully 5y ago
    I thought in NY the corruption was done via "donations" and association with the "Patrolmen's Benevolent Association". They give out cards specifically for this purpose. From the wording in this article they are pretty brazen about it. Even the official comments don't deny they affect officers discretion. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42780382 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42780382
    - mc32 5y ago
      In the article itself it’s got contradicting opinions about its usefulness. From it has little impact to it might get you off a minor speeding ticket or violation. It won’t get you off major infractions. What it may do more reliably is give the bearer some benefit of doubt. With bodycams however I’m sure there is now less wiggle room. Corruption in the US doesn’t happen much at this level. It happens more on the turnstile from politics to private practice and back. The revolving door along with the institutionalization of non-elected officials (appointees) which circumvents democracy.
      - jdsully 5y ago
        Where police bribes are common they are usually for things like speeding tickets. Getting out of major charges with a bribe is pretty far down the corruption rabbit hole.
        mc32 5y ago
        From friends in some of these places it covers a wide range of things: avoiding the consequences of illegal building, accidents with bodily injury, as well as getting choice jobs without qualifications, etc.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        >What it may do more reliably is give the bearer some benefit of doubt. Exactly. It tells them you're "in the club" so when they fishing stop you with some BS minor traffic violation as a pretext they a) don't go all out with the 20 questions routine fishing for probable cause and b) let you off with a warning.
russdpale 5y ago
No. I'd argue Pakistan was a far bigger problem, but certainly corruption did not help. Charges of corruption in urban centers is very old in Afghanistan, the Taliban certainly did not invent that.
- wil421 5y ago
  I was watching someone on PBS last week who claimed Pakistani intelligence created the Taliban and then fostered them into Afghanistan. Not to mention they pretty much hid Osama Bin Ladin for a decade or so.
  - nwatson 5y ago
    That was the OP, Ms. Sarah Chayes, the interviewed party in the PBS NewsHour article/video, says that Pakistan intelligence services conceived of the Taliban, funded their religious schools and military training, and funded their entry and presence in Afghanistan. Pakistan and the Taliban are pretty tight, and together can now control the poppy/opium/heroin trade, and crucial land traffic across Afghanistan, extracting their rent. Plus Pakistan now has "head space" when confronting India, margin for maneuvering.

16 points by nwatson 5y ago

The US currently operates amidst legal corruption. And that is OK, until the citizens say it is not and mean it, just to be clear here. That imparts a strong bias that very likely marginalizes our government ability to assess the overall effectiveness and ability to function in other governments.

PaulHoule 5y ago
I told a visitor from Japan that we don't have bribery scandals because we legalized bribery with our election financing system.
- aweiland 5y ago
  Yeah, you really only see them at the state and local level.

slownews45 5y ago

Yay - this is actually a key issue. If you've traveled internationally you QUICKLY get a sense of how folks feel about their govt. Corrupt govt? Everyone is cheating that govt as well. So if you are a cop, your bosses are taking your pay, they are in bed with XXX and YYY, then yeah, forget ANY chance of clean policing - "spot fines" here we come and services to highest bidder.

PaulHoule 5y ago
I find it hard to image paying off a cop to avoid a speeding ticket in the US although I know in any place where gang activity is widespread there are cops on the take. On the other hand I think corruption is widespread at the upper levels in Albany and Washington.
- jdsully 5y ago
  I thought in NY the corruption was done via "donations" and association with the "Patrolmen's Benevolent Association". They give out cards specifically for this purpose. From the wording in this article they are pretty brazen about it. Even the official comments don't deny they affect officers discretion. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42780382 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42780382
  - mc32 5y ago
    In the article itself it’s got contradicting opinions about its usefulness. From it has little impact to it might get you off a minor speeding ticket or violation. It won’t get you off major infractions. What it may do more reliably is give the bearer some benefit of doubt. With bodycams however I’m sure there is now less wiggle room. Corruption in the US doesn’t happen much at this level. It happens more on the turnstile from politics to private practice and back. The revolving door along with the institutionalization of non-elected officials (appointees) which circumvents democracy.
    - jdsully 5y ago
      Where police bribes are common they are usually for things like speeding tickets. Getting out of major charges with a bribe is pretty far down the corruption rabbit hole.
      - mc32 5y ago
        From friends in some of these places it covers a wide range of things: avoiding the consequences of illegal building, accidents with bodily injury, as well as getting choice jobs without qualifications, etc.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      >What it may do more reliably is give the bearer some benefit of doubt. Exactly. It tells them you're "in the club" so when they fishing stop you with some BS minor traffic violation as a pretext they a) don't go all out with the 20 questions routine fishing for probable cause and b) let you off with a warning.

russdpale 5y ago

No. I'd argue Pakistan was a far bigger problem, but certainly corruption did not help. Charges of corruption in urban centers is very old in Afghanistan, the Taliban certainly did not invent that.

wil421 5y ago
I was watching someone on PBS last week who claimed Pakistani intelligence created the Taliban and then fostered them into Afghanistan. Not to mention they pretty much hid Osama Bin Ladin for a decade or so.
- nwatson 5y ago
  That was the OP, Ms. Sarah Chayes, the interviewed party in the PBS NewsHour article/video, says that Pakistan intelligence services conceived of the Taliban, funded their religious schools and military training, and funded their entry and presence in Afghanistan. Pakistan and the Taliban are pretty tight, and together can now control the poppy/opium/heroin trade, and crucial land traffic across Afghanistan, extracting their rent. Plus Pakistan now has "head space" when confronting India, margin for maneuvering.