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There was no way to defeat the Afghan Taliban without Pakistani help. The ideological reservoir from which Taliban recruits is bottomless; and with military and

by jeswin 5y ago

There was no way to defeat the Afghan Taliban without Pakistani help. The ideological reservoir from which Taliban recruits is bottomless; and with military and financial support from across the border, quite formidable. Over the last decade, the US had lost all leverage with Pakistan. Pakistan is now fully allied with China.

cmurf 5y ago
The Taliban could uave been defeated with the proper equivalent extremist commitment: kill all life within 1 km of any Taliban. No matter the country they are in. Tactical nukes. An non-violent alternative, grant permanent U.S. residency to all Afghan women and children. And evacuate anyone who wants out. Either would be cheaper, and involve less death and misery, than what has transpired.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  > An non-violent alternative, grant permanent U.S. residency to all Afghan women and children. And evacuate anyone who wants out. Did you live in 2001? There was severe distrust of "Al Qaeda cells", which were these hypothetical terrorists inside of the USA pretending to be a nice guy. But one phone call from Osama Bin Laden would turn them into a suicide bomber. ------- I'm glad that we've built up trust with the Afghan people and are able to accept them into our society today. But that kind of thinking you're talking about would have NOT worked in 2001. I think the Afghans have also learned to trust us to some extent. My friend had to kill a child girl soldier who fired upon him, hiding an AK47 in her Burka. It turns out that burkas are really good at hiding weapons. I don't think I've heard of any of those stories recently however. ---------- The US won the hearts of Afghan women and children because we built schools and universities for them. The trust did not exist in 2001, but the trust exists today thanks to literally millions of college-educated Afghan women telling our story and learning our values.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    "I'm glad that we've built up trust with the Afghan people and are able to accept them into our society today." Do we? We didn't as of the Trump Administration. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/trump-immigration-crackdown-visas/565949/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/trump-i... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-admin-broke-law-visa-delays-afghans-iraqis-who-worked-n1057846 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-admin-bro...
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Trump didn't, but Americans as a whole have an accepting culture. Over 75% of Republicans and 90% of Democrats wish to accept more Afghan refugees in light of the Taliban takeover. When push comes to shove, Americans (Republicans included) are a welcoming bunch. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VJKdBglH8nPNslg4duYhtV1fuTcoWF4w/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VJKdBglH8nPNslg4duYhtV1fuTc... Question #13, which has Republican / Democrat statistics specific to that question on a later page. Something like 79% of Trump voters think we should help those Afghans come to the USA. ----- Question #12, with 59% of respondents saying the US isn't "doing enough" to help the Afghans, is even more bipartisan, with Republican/Democrat splits being negligible in the stats. (59% Democrats / 64% Republicans think Biden is "not doing enough" to help the Afghan people)
- watwut 5y ago
  It is scary how easy some are about committing genocide when it is abroad.
  - cmurf 5y ago
    The comment is not advocacy. Had all Taliban been murdered, there would be no Taliban problem today. Instead the dispute would be between the drug lords and the rest of the civilian population.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Various leadership positions of the Taliban have been murdered by drones something like 5x or 6x over. The US never had a problem with killing Taliban per se (or imprisoning / exiling them). A good chunk of upper-Taliban leadership were former prisoners that were released, leading up to the peace talks of last year. (Its better that we negotiate with moderate Taliban we chose to release from prison, rather than the extremists that come from self-recruitment) The issue is that the Taliban can continue to recruit more and more leaders from the locals. They're able to recruit in large numbers because the Afghan culture glorifies their resistance across the 1800s against Great Britain (and other world powers with superior tech). Their entire culture is optimized about fighting against foreigners and rallying locals. The more we kill them, the more they're able to recruit.
      - yourapostasy 5y ago
        > Their entire culture is optimized about fighting against foreigners and rallying locals. The more we kill them, the more they're able to recruit. Afghanis stopped doing that for the period the Mongols ruled via one demonstration of regional depopulation through municipal-scale genocide [1]. But the Mongols were like that: they were quite progressive and often ran on a benevolent dictator model, but you cross them just once and they salted the earth after they were done wholesale killing everyone, innocents included. But the Mongols' record in Afghanistan was likely only possible because they established a reputation for carrying out these genocides on various scales (Khwarazmian Empire being a notably bloody example). I suspect China comes closest in the current era to that level of determination; fortunately for Afghanis, China is not demonstrably interested in Afghanistan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_Afghanistan#Mongol_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_Afghanistan#Mongo... [2] https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-Chinese-investment-in-Afghanistan2 https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-Chinese-investme...
- tinza123 5y ago
  Your idea is the most Taliban idea I've heard.
- gremloni 5y ago
  Your solution is worse than the problem.
650REDHAIR 5y ago
Don't forget Saudi Arabia funding madrassas in Pakistan for decades.

by jeswin 5y ago

cmurf 5y ago

The Taliban could uave been defeated with the proper equivalent extremist commitment: kill all life within 1 km of any Taliban. No matter the country they are in. Tactical nukes. An non-violent alternative, grant permanent U.S. residency to all Afghan women and children. And evacuate anyone who wants out. Either would be cheaper, and involve less death and misery, than what has transpired.

dragontamer 5y ago
> An non-violent alternative, grant permanent U.S. residency to all Afghan women and children. And evacuate anyone who wants out. Did you live in 2001? There was severe distrust of "Al Qaeda cells", which were these hypothetical terrorists inside of the USA pretending to be a nice guy. But one phone call from Osama Bin Laden would turn them into a suicide bomber. ------- I'm glad that we've built up trust with the Afghan people and are able to accept them into our society today. But that kind of thinking you're talking about would have NOT worked in 2001. I think the Afghans have also learned to trust us to some extent. My friend had to kill a child girl soldier who fired upon him, hiding an AK47 in her Burka. It turns out that burkas are really good at hiding weapons. I don't think I've heard of any of those stories recently however. ---------- The US won the hearts of Afghan women and children because we built schools and universities for them. The trust did not exist in 2001, but the trust exists today thanks to literally millions of college-educated Afghan women telling our story and learning our values.
- mcguire 5y ago
  "I'm glad that we've built up trust with the Afghan people and are able to accept them into our society today." Do we? We didn't as of the Trump Administration. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/trump-immigration-crackdown-visas/565949/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/trump-i... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-admin-broke-law-visa-delays-afghans-iraqis-who-worked-n1057846 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-admin-bro...
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Trump didn't, but Americans as a whole have an accepting culture. Over 75% of Republicans and 90% of Democrats wish to accept more Afghan refugees in light of the Taliban takeover. When push comes to shove, Americans (Republicans included) are a welcoming bunch. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VJKdBglH8nPNslg4duYhtV1fuTcoWF4w/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VJKdBglH8nPNslg4duYhtV1fuTc... Question #13, which has Republican / Democrat statistics specific to that question on a later page. Something like 79% of Trump voters think we should help those Afghans come to the USA. ----- Question #12, with 59% of respondents saying the US isn't "doing enough" to help the Afghans, is even more bipartisan, with Republican/Democrat splits being negligible in the stats. (59% Democrats / 64% Republicans think Biden is "not doing enough" to help the Afghan people)
watwut 5y ago
It is scary how easy some are about committing genocide when it is abroad.
- cmurf 5y ago
  The comment is not advocacy. Had all Taliban been murdered, there would be no Taliban problem today. Instead the dispute would be between the drug lords and the rest of the civilian population.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Various leadership positions of the Taliban have been murdered by drones something like 5x or 6x over. The US never had a problem with killing Taliban per se (or imprisoning / exiling them). A good chunk of upper-Taliban leadership were former prisoners that were released, leading up to the peace talks of last year. (Its better that we negotiate with moderate Taliban we chose to release from prison, rather than the extremists that come from self-recruitment) The issue is that the Taliban can continue to recruit more and more leaders from the locals. They're able to recruit in large numbers because the Afghan culture glorifies their resistance across the 1800s against Great Britain (and other world powers with superior tech). Their entire culture is optimized about fighting against foreigners and rallying locals. The more we kill them, the more they're able to recruit.
    - yourapostasy 5y ago
      > Their entire culture is optimized about fighting against foreigners and rallying locals. The more we kill them, the more they're able to recruit. Afghanis stopped doing that for the period the Mongols ruled via one demonstration of regional depopulation through municipal-scale genocide [1]. But the Mongols were like that: they were quite progressive and often ran on a benevolent dictator model, but you cross them just once and they salted the earth after they were done wholesale killing everyone, innocents included. But the Mongols' record in Afghanistan was likely only possible because they established a reputation for carrying out these genocides on various scales (Khwarazmian Empire being a notably bloody example). I suspect China comes closest in the current era to that level of determination; fortunately for Afghanis, China is not demonstrably interested in Afghanistan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_Afghanistan#Mongol_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_Afghanistan#Mongo... [2] https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-Chinese-investment-in-Afghanistan2 https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-Chinese-investme...
tinza123 5y ago
Your idea is the most Taliban idea I've heard.
gremloni 5y ago
Your solution is worse than the problem.

650REDHAIR 5y ago

Don't forget Saudi Arabia funding madrassas in Pakistan for decades.