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Kevin Sorbo's take https://twitter.com/ksorbs/status/1417538663018344448 https://twitter.com/ksorbs/status/1417538663018344448 Remember to get vaccinated or a

by a_imho 5y ago

Kevin Sorbo's take https://twitter.com/ksorbs/status/1417538663018344448 https://twitter.com/ksorbs/status/1417538663018344448 Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from the virus that they were vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated. I'm really interested a rebuttal to this.

misiti3780 5y ago
That argument makes sense only if the borders were shut down though -- right ? I'm pro vaccine, but even if everyone in the US got vaccinated in the next month we would still have to worry about vaccine-resistant variants coming in via other places.
christophilus 5y ago
> or a vaccinated person might get sick from the virus that they were vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated The statement is true. If you're not vaccinated, and you get COVID, there's a non-zero chance that you'll be the source of someone else's breakthrough case. This statement is also true: If you're vaccinated, and you get COVID, there's a non-zero chance that you'll be the source of someone else's breakthrough case. So, the quote is kind of useless. The unvaccinated probably do spread COVID faster and with more frequency. So, the directionality of the quote is fine. But it reads like a boolean statement, which is incorrect. COVID is almost certainly endemic at this point. Vaccines clearly help, but it's incorrect to blame all of the mutations and spread on the unvaccinated.
- wnkrshm 5y ago
  The take-away should be that we should mask up and try to isolate independent of vaccination status. Sadly, lots of vaccinated people think the ride is over for them and behave accordingly, in addition to the ones who never cared in the first place. We may see the fruits of that in winter, when the freshly normalized carelessness might lead to a larger increase in infections.
- 55555 5y ago
  > The unvaccinated probably do spread COVID faster and with more frequency. In practice, do they really? If you're vaccinated and catch COVID, you're probably fine, so you go about your life. If you're unvaccinated, you're more likely to get sick and thus stay home. You're also more likely to build up natural immunity. Seems to me like now that we know being vaccinated doesn't prevent transmission, we should want the anti-vaxxers to not get vaxxed, as we'll all reach herd immunity faster and they're less likely to get us sick.
- walterbell 5y ago
  > The unvaccinated probably do spread COVID faster and with more frequency. No, it's the other way around. Transmission is correlated with viral load. In the unvaccinated, high viral load leads to early self-observable symptoms. The vaccines are designed to suppress symptoms, so a vaccinated person can be infected and transmitting, without knowing they should be isolating. That's why the CDC recommends testing of vaccinated people after exposure, https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210729/cdc-reverses-guidance-testing-fully-vaccinated-people https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210729/cdc-reverses-guidan... (July 29, 2021) > Even if they’re not showing symptoms, fully vaccinated people should “get tested 3-5 days after exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 and wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days after exposure or until they receive a negative test result,” ... “Our updated guidance recommends vaccinated people get tested upon exposure regardless of symptoms,” CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, MD, told The New York Times In dense urban areas, many of the remaining "unvaccinated" are likely to be Covid survivors with natural immunity, which offers nasal/mucosal immunity in upper respiratory tract, which is not possible with intramuscular (arm deltoid injection) vaccines. A future nasal vaccine may offer such protection.
  - criticaltinker 5y ago
    Up-voted because this is a complex dynamic that many people seem to be unaware of, or fall victim to over-simplification when discussing. The scientific literature supports the fact that vaccination reduces symptoms and reduces duration and intensity of viral shedding - but immunity acquired through natural infection also has the same effect. So many people talk about "vaccinated versus unvaccinated", but this dualistic framing is not conducive to scientifically accurate discussion. There are at least three groups of people to acknowledge: A) vaccinated B) immune via natural infection C) immunologically naive (have never been exposed to the virus) The A & B groups will have very similar characteristics in terms of individual risks and risks to others. Group C is what many people mean to refer to when they say "unvaccinated people spread COVID faster and with more frequency".
    - xfitm3 5y ago
      I cannot receive the vaccine due to a medical condition and I can't wait for group B to get the same first-class citizen privileges as group A. I've been sick, recovered, and have some form of resistance.
dntrkv 5y ago
Higher vaccination rate == less spread == less mutations.
- apalumbi 5y ago
  The opposite could happen though. "Vaccination" allows for the virus to mutate to a more lethal strain since it does not sterilize the host. See Marek's disease: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/
TulliusCicero 5y ago
Vaccines reduce the likelihood and severity of getting a disease, but they don't block it 100% for 100% of people. Additionally, some people can't get vaccinated, or vaccines only work more weakly for them. Also also, pandemics have knock on effects beyond just the people who get sick, in terms of economic impact, as well as societal rules and restrictions, e.g. schools closing down because of too many sick people, medical procedures getting delayed because the ICU is overwhelmed, etc. No person is an island; even someone who hypothetically somehow had magical superimmunity from the start of the pandemic would still be facing its effects.
TYPE_FASTER 5y ago
The vaccinations both reduce the likelihood that you will get COVID, and the likelihood that you will end up requiring hospitalization. For example, while the Israeli study in another HN article found that two shots of the Pfizer vaccine is 39-41% effective against infection of the Delta strain, it is 91% effective at preventing serious illness and hospitalization. The goal is to reduce the load on the healthcare system. Expanding ICU capacity to always support COVID peak would be expensive, both from the infrastructure and staffing perspectives. Since the Delta variant is making kids sick, and we don't have a vaccine for kids who are 12 and under yet, we're going to see more kids end up in the ICU. Also, the Delta variant is 2-3x as transmissible as the COVID strains we've seen before. The claims that vaccines put evolutionary pressure on the virus to create more virulent strains don't seem that credible when you consider India is seeing new strains develop with a 6% vaccination rate. A rebuttal would be that we should get vaccinated so we don't die while taking up scarce resources for no real reason.

by a_imho 5y ago

misiti3780 5y ago

That argument makes sense only if the borders were shut down though -- right ? I'm pro vaccine, but even if everyone in the US got vaccinated in the next month we would still have to worry about vaccine-resistant variants coming in via other places.

christophilus 5y ago

> or a vaccinated person might get sick from the virus that they were vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated The statement is true. If you're not vaccinated, and you get COVID, there's a non-zero chance that you'll be the source of someone else's breakthrough case. This statement is also true: If you're vaccinated, and you get COVID, there's a non-zero chance that you'll be the source of someone else's breakthrough case. So, the quote is kind of useless. The unvaccinated probably do spread COVID faster and with more frequency. So, the directionality of the quote is fine. But it reads like a boolean statement, which is incorrect. COVID is almost certainly endemic at this point. Vaccines clearly help, but it's incorrect to blame all of the mutations and spread on the unvaccinated.

wnkrshm 5y ago
The take-away should be that we should mask up and try to isolate independent of vaccination status. Sadly, lots of vaccinated people think the ride is over for them and behave accordingly, in addition to the ones who never cared in the first place. We may see the fruits of that in winter, when the freshly normalized carelessness might lead to a larger increase in infections.
55555 5y ago
> The unvaccinated probably do spread COVID faster and with more frequency. In practice, do they really? If you're vaccinated and catch COVID, you're probably fine, so you go about your life. If you're unvaccinated, you're more likely to get sick and thus stay home. You're also more likely to build up natural immunity. Seems to me like now that we know being vaccinated doesn't prevent transmission, we should want the anti-vaxxers to not get vaxxed, as we'll all reach herd immunity faster and they're less likely to get us sick.
walterbell 5y ago
> The unvaccinated probably do spread COVID faster and with more frequency. No, it's the other way around. Transmission is correlated with viral load. In the unvaccinated, high viral load leads to early self-observable symptoms. The vaccines are designed to suppress symptoms, so a vaccinated person can be infected and transmitting, without knowing they should be isolating. That's why the CDC recommends testing of vaccinated people after exposure, https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210729/cdc-reverses-guidance-testing-fully-vaccinated-people https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210729/cdc-reverses-guidan... (July 29, 2021) > Even if they’re not showing symptoms, fully vaccinated people should “get tested 3-5 days after exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 and wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days after exposure or until they receive a negative test result,” ... “Our updated guidance recommends vaccinated people get tested upon exposure regardless of symptoms,” CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, MD, told The New York Times In dense urban areas, many of the remaining "unvaccinated" are likely to be Covid survivors with natural immunity, which offers nasal/mucosal immunity in upper respiratory tract, which is not possible with intramuscular (arm deltoid injection) vaccines. A future nasal vaccine may offer such protection.
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  Up-voted because this is a complex dynamic that many people seem to be unaware of, or fall victim to over-simplification when discussing. The scientific literature supports the fact that vaccination reduces symptoms and reduces duration and intensity of viral shedding - but immunity acquired through natural infection also has the same effect. So many people talk about "vaccinated versus unvaccinated", but this dualistic framing is not conducive to scientifically accurate discussion. There are at least three groups of people to acknowledge: A) vaccinated B) immune via natural infection C) immunologically naive (have never been exposed to the virus) The A & B groups will have very similar characteristics in terms of individual risks and risks to others. Group C is what many people mean to refer to when they say "unvaccinated people spread COVID faster and with more frequency".
  - xfitm3 5y ago
    I cannot receive the vaccine due to a medical condition and I can't wait for group B to get the same first-class citizen privileges as group A. I've been sick, recovered, and have some form of resistance.

dntrkv 5y ago

Higher vaccination rate == less spread == less mutations.

apalumbi 5y ago
The opposite could happen though. "Vaccination" allows for the virus to mutate to a more lethal strain since it does not sterilize the host. See Marek's disease: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/

TulliusCicero 5y ago

Vaccines reduce the likelihood and severity of getting a disease, but they don't block it 100% for 100% of people. Additionally, some people can't get vaccinated, or vaccines only work more weakly for them. Also also, pandemics have knock on effects beyond just the people who get sick, in terms of economic impact, as well as societal rules and restrictions, e.g. schools closing down because of too many sick people, medical procedures getting delayed because the ICU is overwhelmed, etc. No person is an island; even someone who hypothetically somehow had magical superimmunity from the start of the pandemic would still be facing its effects.

TYPE_FASTER 5y ago

The vaccinations both reduce the likelihood that you will get COVID, and the likelihood that you will end up requiring hospitalization. For example, while the Israeli study in another HN article found that two shots of the Pfizer vaccine is 39-41% effective against infection of the Delta strain, it is 91% effective at preventing serious illness and hospitalization. The goal is to reduce the load on the healthcare system. Expanding ICU capacity to always support COVID peak would be expensive, both from the infrastructure and staffing perspectives. Since the Delta variant is making kids sick, and we don't have a vaccine for kids who are 12 and under yet, we're going to see more kids end up in the ICU. Also, the Delta variant is 2-3x as transmissible as the COVID strains we've seen before. The claims that vaccines put evolutionary pressure on the virus to create more virulent strains don't seem that credible when you consider India is seeing new strains develop with a 6% vaccination rate. A rebuttal would be that we should get vaccinated so we don't die while taking up scarce resources for no real reason.