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> I don't see why criticizing BLM automatically makes something racist. It doesn't! Any social movement, no matter how just their cause, should be willing to a

> I don't see why criticizing BLM automatically makes something racist. It doesn't! Any social movement, no matter how just their cause, should be willing to accept valid criticism. However, when Person A says "look at this instance of systemic racism" and someone else replies "But MLK cheated on his wife!!", that's not arguing in good faith; that's commonly known as "whataboutism". [^1] > I searched about the Chicago shooting deaths, and i don't see how it makes any point for or against BLM? This is what makes it a dog whistle. The words are "google Chicago shootings", and there's nothing wrong with the literal meaning of those words, but other people here clearly received the message "this point about systemic racism is invalid because BLM is a bunch of hypocrites". If you google for the exact phrase "google Chicago shootings", including the word "google", you will find many instances of people using that phrase to make bad faith arguments criticizing the Black Lives Matter movement. [^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

blueflow 5y ago
> If you google for the exact phrase "google Chicago shootings", including the word "google" This thread is the first result for me. Not kidding. Could it be that you made it up that its a dog whistle? I'm doubting your good faith here.
- thewakalix 5y ago
  Google gives personalized search results. It seems Google is aware that you frequent Hacker News. DuckDuckGo has non-personalized search results: https://archive.vn/mxh08 https://archive.vn/mxh08.
  - AzzieElbab 5y ago
    I get this thread as first result from google.com in incognito window https://imgur.com/nsvBk4O https://imgur.com/nsvBk4O
- handrous 5y ago
  There's a whole pile of twitterese phrases like this that are used to fly under moderation radar. Some refer to specific standard sections of Wikipedia's biographical articles in order to highlight that a person's Jewish, some are like this (that's why the "google" is important to triggering one's "this might be one of those things" alarms—a common pattern for these is directing people to look at another resource, using set phrasing) Yes, seeing dog-whistles everywhere gets tedious (for all concerned) but the above is, unfortunately, a real thing. I'd be surprised to see it used with that intent on HN, though.
  - blueflow 5y ago
    I still think you guys are bullshitting me. What prevents me from looking up phrases from your post on the internet, pick out some social groups that also use that phrase and claim you are associated with it? There isn't even a way for you to falsify it. > There's a whole pile of twitterese phrases like this that are used to fly under moderation radar. What rule is it breaking to tell people to "google chicago shootings"? And my question > How does the second statement relate to racism? is still not answered. Is just knowing the information about the Chicago gun violence putting some folks at disadvantage? Where is the implied link here?
    - handrous 5y ago
      > I still think you guys are bullshitting me. What prevents me from looking up phrases from your post on the internet, pick out some social groups that also use that phrase and claim you are associated with it? There isn't even a way for you to falsify it. I understand. If you don't keep an eye on the right parts of the right sites (including, in particular, Twitter, but also others) you've probably never seen this kind of thing actually done with the intent to slyly express racist or white supremacist junk. In the right places, though, it's commonplace and only barely veiled (questions from newbies who don't "get it" draw winky-emoji, or more veiled pointers so the newbie can triangulate the real intended meaning, that kind of thing). > What rule is it breaking to tell people to "google chicago shootings"? It's not, that's the point. They're dodges/stand-ins for other things, including prior whistles that are recognized as breaking the rules and do get moderated. The more deniable, the better. In some cases, there's some unfortunate overlap between actual concerns about a real issue (black-on-black violence) which one might innocently express interest in, and precisely the same issue (and, specifically, Chicago, for this issue) as a common short-hand for rejecting the importance of other issues of violence against black people (you see how useful it would be for shifting blame or implying even worse things, if one wanted to do that, right?), or a kind of conversation starter for what amounts to a recruitment script. [EDIT] to be clear, I'm not claiming you had ill intent. I'm explaining why that phrasing and topic set off some alarm bells for some people.
- xenophonf 5y ago
  My DDG search for "google Chicago shootings" is the same as thewakalix's: https://imgur.com/a/EAQeubu https://imgur.com/a/EAQeubu Here are my Google search results: https://imgur.com/a/D8XLt29 https://imgur.com/a/D8XLt29 As another data point, I've been hearing variations of that phrase online or in person for ages from my racist family and (former) friends.

blueflow 5y ago

> If you google for the exact phrase "google Chicago shootings", including the word "google" This thread is the first result for me. Not kidding. Could it be that you made it up that its a dog whistle? I'm doubting your good faith here.

thewakalix 5y ago
Google gives personalized search results. It seems Google is aware that you frequent Hacker News. DuckDuckGo has non-personalized search results: https://archive.vn/mxh08 https://archive.vn/mxh08.
- AzzieElbab 5y ago
  I get this thread as first result from google.com in incognito window https://imgur.com/nsvBk4O https://imgur.com/nsvBk4O
handrous 5y ago
There's a whole pile of twitterese phrases like this that are used to fly under moderation radar. Some refer to specific standard sections of Wikipedia's biographical articles in order to highlight that a person's Jewish, some are like this (that's why the "google" is important to triggering one's "this might be one of those things" alarms—a common pattern for these is directing people to look at another resource, using set phrasing) Yes, seeing dog-whistles everywhere gets tedious (for all concerned) but the above is, unfortunately, a real thing. I'd be surprised to see it used with that intent on HN, though.
- blueflow 5y ago
  I still think you guys are bullshitting me. What prevents me from looking up phrases from your post on the internet, pick out some social groups that also use that phrase and claim you are associated with it? There isn't even a way for you to falsify it. > There's a whole pile of twitterese phrases like this that are used to fly under moderation radar. What rule is it breaking to tell people to "google chicago shootings"? And my question > How does the second statement relate to racism? is still not answered. Is just knowing the information about the Chicago gun violence putting some folks at disadvantage? Where is the implied link here?
  - handrous 5y ago
    > I still think you guys are bullshitting me. What prevents me from looking up phrases from your post on the internet, pick out some social groups that also use that phrase and claim you are associated with it? There isn't even a way for you to falsify it. I understand. If you don't keep an eye on the right parts of the right sites (including, in particular, Twitter, but also others) you've probably never seen this kind of thing actually done with the intent to slyly express racist or white supremacist junk. In the right places, though, it's commonplace and only barely veiled (questions from newbies who don't "get it" draw winky-emoji, or more veiled pointers so the newbie can triangulate the real intended meaning, that kind of thing). > What rule is it breaking to tell people to "google chicago shootings"? It's not, that's the point. They're dodges/stand-ins for other things, including prior whistles that are recognized as breaking the rules and do get moderated. The more deniable, the better. In some cases, there's some unfortunate overlap between actual concerns about a real issue (black-on-black violence) which one might innocently express interest in, and precisely the same issue (and, specifically, Chicago, for this issue) as a common short-hand for rejecting the importance of other issues of violence against black people (you see how useful it would be for shifting blame or implying even worse things, if one wanted to do that, right?), or a kind of conversation starter for what amounts to a recruitment script. [EDIT] to be clear, I'm not claiming you had ill intent. I'm explaining why that phrasing and topic set off some alarm bells for some people.
xenophonf 5y ago
My DDG search for "google Chicago shootings" is the same as thewakalix's: https://imgur.com/a/EAQeubu https://imgur.com/a/EAQeubu Here are my Google search results: https://imgur.com/a/D8XLt29 https://imgur.com/a/D8XLt29 As another data point, I've been hearing variations of that phrase online or in person for ages from my racist family and (former) friends.