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I would have no problem with vaccine mandates if they were instead immunity mandates. Some people, like many in my family, spent a year and half exposing themse

I would have no problem with vaccine mandates if they were instead immunity mandates. Some people, like many in my family, spent a year and half exposing themselves to keep the electricity running, food packaged, delivered, fulfillment warehouses running, etc. Seems very strange that in the U.S. these people, most of whom are young (which means they are at lower risk from covid but higher risk from vax complications like myocarditis), cannot prove they have active antibodies as a way to meet an "immunity mandate". Instead, they are treated as if they are a threat. As if they are the ones who are overstressing the health care systems. When often instead they are the frontline workers these systems depend on. Many give care in nursing homes and at hospitals (in the case of nurses, a large percentage of whom still refuse the vax). How many health care resources does the average unvaxxed healthy 26 year old consume? A lot less than the chronic smoker, the morbidly obese, the elderly, etc.

peakaboo 5y ago
This thing was never about protecting people. Thats why it doesn't make sense to you. These health passes will later be called citizen passes or similar, and you won't be able to do any activity without them. And if you are a difficult person with opinions about this, you will get flagged as a security risk and unable to use that citizen pass. People think I'm joking and it will never happen. But I believe that's exactly where we are heading.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  I never said I was confused in my comment. Reasonable people can disagree about the necessity of vaccines for every single human. I'm making the case it is not necessary and that it is unethical. I could have gone into how these vaccines would be much more useful given to at-risk populations throughout the world instead of low risk, largely already immune young populations in the West. That's another good angle of this. All that being said, I don't think scare mongering about social credit systems is helpful in this discussion. Most I've talked to who support vax pass are resolutely opposed to China-style social credit systems and I believe such a system would be difficult to implement in the U.S.
- neither_color 5y ago
  These health passes will later be called citizen passes or similar, and you won't be able to do any activity without them. "The key to unlock NYC" just reeks of cheesy marketing department brainstorming doesnt it?
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    This sentiment I absolutely I agree with.
dfxm12 5y ago
The goal is to stop the people from getting infected as much as possible, for a couple of reasons, mostly to stop mutations and also to make sure hospitals aren't over-loaded. It sounds like we're at least already on the same page with not wanting hospitals to be over-loaded. Getting a vaccine is much better at preventing reinfection than only having had COVID in the past, according to the CDC study quoted below (basically, those who had covid before and weren't vaccinate were over 2 times more likely to get re-infected than those with the vaccine!). I'm sorry that people in your family are being treated like a threat. Can you elaborate on that? I also feel for those if there are issues at work, and I really think US should mandate paid leave to take the vaccine (at a minimum), but that's another discussion. :) This report details the findings of a case-control evaluation of the association between vaccination and SARS-CoV-2 reinfection in Kentucky during May–June 2021 among persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020. Kentucky residents who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm
- chitowneats 5y ago
  Sure, happy to elaborate. The best example of this is my niece who is a nurse in NYC. She cannot participate at all in city life after the mandate and will soon lose her job over it this Fall. She's very seriously considering leaving the city and her profession entirely. Those who feel that when push comes to shove, people will just get vaxxed, are in for a rude awakening. I understand that you believe that unvaxxed are where the mutations happen. Do you have any peer reviewed studies showing this to be the case? We know from experience with antibiotics that the opposite is true. Humans devise a treatment, the pathogen encounters that treatment, then mutates to circumvent it. Of course I'm a layman so if anyone knows why the opposite would be the case for COVID-19 or viruses in general, I'm happy to be educated on the matter.
  - dfxm12 5y ago
    She cannot participate at all in city life after the mandate and will soon lose her job over it this Fall. I do believe the carrot works better than the stick, but I don't think this goes as far as being "treated like a threat". I understand that you believe that unvaxxed are where the mutations happen. I didn't say this and this is not my full belief :( . Mutations can happen at any new infection (including breakthrough infections, yes). So, the premise is to reduce new infections as much and as fast as possible. I think we're on the same page that vaccination greatly reduces your chance of infection (even more than having previously been infected before). Getting the most people vaccinated, as fast as possible, is the most efficient way to achieve that. Overall, though, you've gotten pretty far away from the original question, "Well, what would it take for you to change your mind [to get the vaccine]?"

peakaboo 5y ago

This thing was never about protecting people. Thats why it doesn't make sense to you. These health passes will later be called citizen passes or similar, and you won't be able to do any activity without them. And if you are a difficult person with opinions about this, you will get flagged as a security risk and unable to use that citizen pass. People think I'm joking and it will never happen. But I believe that's exactly where we are heading.

chitowneats 5y ago
I never said I was confused in my comment. Reasonable people can disagree about the necessity of vaccines for every single human. I'm making the case it is not necessary and that it is unethical. I could have gone into how these vaccines would be much more useful given to at-risk populations throughout the world instead of low risk, largely already immune young populations in the West. That's another good angle of this. All that being said, I don't think scare mongering about social credit systems is helpful in this discussion. Most I've talked to who support vax pass are resolutely opposed to China-style social credit systems and I believe such a system would be difficult to implement in the U.S.
neither_color 5y ago
These health passes will later be called citizen passes or similar, and you won't be able to do any activity without them. "The key to unlock NYC" just reeks of cheesy marketing department brainstorming doesnt it?
- chitowneats 5y ago
  This sentiment I absolutely I agree with.

dfxm12 5y ago

The goal is to stop the people from getting infected as much as possible, for a couple of reasons, mostly to stop mutations and also to make sure hospitals aren't over-loaded. It sounds like we're at least already on the same page with not wanting hospitals to be over-loaded. Getting a vaccine is much better at preventing reinfection than only having had COVID in the past, according to the CDC study quoted below (basically, those who had covid before and weren't vaccinate were over 2 times more likely to get re-infected than those with the vaccine!). I'm sorry that people in your family are being treated like a threat. Can you elaborate on that? I also feel for those if there are issues at work, and I really think US should mandate paid leave to take the vaccine (at a minimum), but that's another discussion. :) This report details the findings of a case-control evaluation of the association between vaccination and SARS-CoV-2 reinfection in Kentucky during May–June 2021 among persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020. Kentucky residents who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm

chitowneats 5y ago
Sure, happy to elaborate. The best example of this is my niece who is a nurse in NYC. She cannot participate at all in city life after the mandate and will soon lose her job over it this Fall. She's very seriously considering leaving the city and her profession entirely. Those who feel that when push comes to shove, people will just get vaxxed, are in for a rude awakening. I understand that you believe that unvaxxed are where the mutations happen. Do you have any peer reviewed studies showing this to be the case? We know from experience with antibiotics that the opposite is true. Humans devise a treatment, the pathogen encounters that treatment, then mutates to circumvent it. Of course I'm a layman so if anyone knows why the opposite would be the case for COVID-19 or viruses in general, I'm happy to be educated on the matter.
- dfxm12 5y ago
  She cannot participate at all in city life after the mandate and will soon lose her job over it this Fall. I do believe the carrot works better than the stick, but I don't think this goes as far as being "treated like a threat". I understand that you believe that unvaxxed are where the mutations happen. I didn't say this and this is not my full belief :( . Mutations can happen at any new infection (including breakthrough infections, yes). So, the premise is to reduce new infections as much and as fast as possible. I think we're on the same page that vaccination greatly reduces your chance of infection (even more than having previously been infected before). Getting the most people vaccinated, as fast as possible, is the most efficient way to achieve that. Overall, though, you've gotten pretty far away from the original question, "Well, what would it take for you to change your mind [to get the vaccine]?"