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we don't require anyone to take the vaccine, and we will never require anyone to take the vaccine. What we should and will do is restrict what someone who is no

we don't require anyone to take the vaccine, and we will never require anyone to take the vaccine. What we should and will do is restrict what someone who is not vaccinated can do to limit the harm they will cause to others. No one is going to bang down your door and force a vaccine into your arm, but if you do not want to get vaccinated you will need to change your life because you will be restricted from participating in many things where you are a danger to others.

TobTobXX 5y ago
Y... yes, that's the same. Compare: "You can murder someone, but then freedoms will be taken from you, because you could hurt someone with these freedoms. You won't get brainwashed out of it, but if you do commit murder, your freedoms are taken away." Not arguing against the policy, but it in practice, it _is_ the same.
pokstad 5y ago
Power to tax is the power to destroy. The power to exclude is the power to coerce. Society is coercing people into taking the vaccine by requiring it for any activities outside the home. Want to go to the grocery store? Get a vaccine or wear a mask. Want to go to Disneyland? Get a vaccine or wear a mask. Want to attend a conference? Get a vaccine or take a test and wear a mask. The mask and testing mandates are an effort to wear down anti-vaccine people instead of letting them be.
- kristjansson 5y ago
  Masks, tests, etc. are foremost ways to mitigate potential harm, not to 'wear down' people.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  The mask mandates are universal -- everyone is required, vaccinated or not. When they were only advised, it was advised that the unvaccinated wear them. And whether you can go into a privately owned store, privately owned Disneyland, or privately owned conference -- these are private businesses, the gov't should not tell them they cannot require vaccination.
  - pokstad 5y ago
    That’s not the case in California. Mask wearing is only required for the unvaccinated. Theme parks and other entertainment venues must follow that mask requirement. Similarly, events of a certain size will require vaccine proof.
- ssully 5y ago
  Your post sounds pretty good, especially when you don't conclude on what we are allowing by "letting them be", which is to continue the spread of a deadly disease.
  - pokstad 5y ago
    There’s a vaccine that has an effective rate of well over 99.9% and is free for everyone in America. The “continued spread of a deadly disease” is among those who choose not to vaccinate. The vast majority of people getting seriously ill and dying in America chose to not get vaccinated AND not changing their habits.
saalweachter 5y ago
I think it's relatively important to recognize both the right of (the people who make up) a society to decide the rules for interacting in society, and the limits we have imposed on ourselves and the rules we make. We have made up a huge number of arbitrary rules, some at a very broad scale (for instance, that you must shoes and shirts to go into most businesses), others idiosyncratic and basically between one person and another (no cats in this apartment). They all restrict our choices and our freedom and our actions. We have also set specific limits on what sort of rules we can make up. You can say "no cats" in an apartment, fine, but you can't say "no pregnant women". You can fire someone for showing up at work one day with a face tattoo but not for changing their religion. "Not wanting to get a vaccine" or "not wanting to wear a face mask" is not currently a recognized protected class (although not being able to because of a medical condition probably is, but hey, of the many many things I am not, I am not a lawyer). There's nothing saying it couldn't be -- we didn't used to have a concept of "protected class", we just had to make it up at some point -- but that's one way to frame this discussion.
throwawaay_3424 5y ago
how long until this turns into concentration camps? Isolate, dehumanize, demonize, euthanize. We are somewhere between isolate and dehumanize.
the_doctah 5y ago
That line of thinking gets pretty interesting when you realize that African-Americans are one of the lowest vaccinated groups. Congratulations, you just reintroduced segregation.

TobTobXX 5y ago

Y... yes, that's the same. Compare: "You can murder someone, but then freedoms will be taken from you, because you could hurt someone with these freedoms. You won't get brainwashed out of it, but if you do commit murder, your freedoms are taken away." Not arguing against the policy, but it in practice, it _is_ the same.

pokstad 5y ago

Power to tax is the power to destroy. The power to exclude is the power to coerce. Society is coercing people into taking the vaccine by requiring it for any activities outside the home. Want to go to the grocery store? Get a vaccine or wear a mask. Want to go to Disneyland? Get a vaccine or wear a mask. Want to attend a conference? Get a vaccine or take a test and wear a mask. The mask and testing mandates are an effort to wear down anti-vaccine people instead of letting them be.

kristjansson 5y ago
Masks, tests, etc. are foremost ways to mitigate potential harm, not to 'wear down' people.
rootusrootus 5y ago
The mask mandates are universal -- everyone is required, vaccinated or not. When they were only advised, it was advised that the unvaccinated wear them. And whether you can go into a privately owned store, privately owned Disneyland, or privately owned conference -- these are private businesses, the gov't should not tell them they cannot require vaccination.
- pokstad 5y ago
  That’s not the case in California. Mask wearing is only required for the unvaccinated. Theme parks and other entertainment venues must follow that mask requirement. Similarly, events of a certain size will require vaccine proof.
ssully 5y ago
Your post sounds pretty good, especially when you don't conclude on what we are allowing by "letting them be", which is to continue the spread of a deadly disease.
- pokstad 5y ago
  There’s a vaccine that has an effective rate of well over 99.9% and is free for everyone in America. The “continued spread of a deadly disease” is among those who choose not to vaccinate. The vast majority of people getting seriously ill and dying in America chose to not get vaccinated AND not changing their habits.

saalweachter 5y ago

I think it's relatively important to recognize both the right of (the people who make up) a society to decide the rules for interacting in society, and the limits we have imposed on ourselves and the rules we make. We have made up a huge number of arbitrary rules, some at a very broad scale (for instance, that you must shoes and shirts to go into most businesses), others idiosyncratic and basically between one person and another (no cats in this apartment). They all restrict our choices and our freedom and our actions. We have also set specific limits on what sort of rules we can make up. You can say "no cats" in an apartment, fine, but you can't say "no pregnant women". You can fire someone for showing up at work one day with a face tattoo but not for changing their religion. "Not wanting to get a vaccine" or "not wanting to wear a face mask" is not currently a recognized protected class (although not being able to because of a medical condition probably is, but hey, of the many many things I am not, I am not a lawyer). There's nothing saying it couldn't be -- we didn't used to have a concept of "protected class", we just had to make it up at some point -- but that's one way to frame this discussion.

throwawaay_3424 5y ago

how long until this turns into concentration camps? Isolate, dehumanize, demonize, euthanize. We are somewhere between isolate and dehumanize.

the_doctah 5y ago

That line of thinking gets pretty interesting when you realize that African-Americans are one of the lowest vaccinated groups. Congratulations, you just reintroduced segregation.