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I don't believe these measures contrary to our values would be something that helps us "win" the war, especially not in way that we would have liked. But I do

by kiba 5y ago

I don't believe these measures contrary to our values would be something that helps us "win" the war, especially not in way that we would have liked. But I do believe that the American people's heart were not into the fight, especially when it became a "forgotten" war. If we commit our full effort and our mind, we might have won the way we would stomach. In the end, if this is not the kind of war the American people are willing to fight, then we shouldn't entered them.

merpnderp 5y ago
Afghanistan has always been poor and its people fractured because it was cut off from the world by its topography, but topography can be overcome. If the US had spent the last 20 years building infrastructure, railroads, highways, mining operations, schools to train engineers, managers, and professionals, Afghanistan would likely look a lot different. But the US missed even low hanging fruit like making poppies a legitimate crop by giving Afghanistan a cut of the legal opioid market.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  60% of Afghanistan is illiterate. An improvement from when NATO forces invaded 20 years ago, but not too much better. I don’t think your infrastructure dreams would have had any efficacy.
  - merpnderp 5y ago
    What does someone working in a primitive mine need with literacy? It would be a job that paid a lot better than subsistence farming and might allow that person to send their kids to school to become engineers. Without railroads and highways, Afghanistan will never move forward. It should have been the first thing we did, and not only to link up cities, but to locations with large amounts of natural resources to build up some wealth and industry.
    - watwut 5y ago
      It was making training army difficult for American troops for example. Soldiers complained about it. Such high illiteracy rates will make it impossible to build enough of management and general bureaucracy needed to build anything large. It will make it hard to train workers in technology. You won't build railroads nor roads, you won't mainten them either. Primitive mines are not competitive. They are not producing enough to feed you. And hungry people won't save money for school. You need technology.
- MichaelGroves 5y ago
  > 20 years building infrastructure, railroads, highways, mining operations, schools to train engineers, managers, and professionals 20 years? Zahir Shah tried this for 40 years. Amanullah Khan also tried, as did several others. Numerous would-be reformers have thought as you do and tried to impose change on Afghanistan, and all their efforts have culminated in the situation we have now. It's been approached from a number of ideological/political directions. Some were monarchs, others proponents of republics. The PDPA/Soviets tried it from a Marxist/Leninist angle with lots of bloodshed, while Zahir Shah tried to create a constitutional monarchy and refrained from murdering his political opponents. Neither succeeded in the end. What would you bring to the table that hasn't been tried before?
  - chillwaves 5y ago
    Modern technology? A trillion dollars?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sureglymop 5y ago
The goal was never to "win". It was to build up an army (the afghan army) that could eventually stand by itself and defend the government in place. This was a largely failing effort even years ago, considering that most of the afghan army were made up of people from the north of Afghanistan and previous geopolitics (north/south) play a role. The people in the south would at times trust the taliban over sympathisers for the previous northern warlords which had influence over members of the afghan army. See this documentary (from 8 years ago) about how utterly lost and helpless this situation has always been: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI
- int_19h 5y ago
  Speaking of north/south divisions... I once spoke with a young adult Afghan refugee who got naturalized in New Zealand - this was a couple years after the Taliban fell. I asked him how he felt about that. I certainly didn't expect the response. He said that Taliban were dangerous religious fanatics, but at least they were predictable fanatics - they had a set of laws, some very harsh, that you had to follow, or else. On the other hand, the Northern Alliance forces, in his telling, were basically just looters - they didn't bring better laws so much so as no laws, just a free-for-all where the guy with the gun takes whatever he wants. So his solution to that dilemma was to emigrate, but he told me that if he couldn't do that, he'd prefer Taliban.
- kiba 5y ago
  By "win", I meant whatever strategic goal, clearly defined, we hope to accomplish there. And then we spend our full effort to achieve that. If we do not know our goals, and not willing to spend blood and treasure, then what are we doing there?
  - arminiusreturns 5y ago
    The problem is the real goals are not revealed to the public, so all the wishywashy stuff about unclear goals is just to fool onlookers while the real goals were accomplished. Anybody who bought into the whole "no such thing as the deep state" in the anti-Trump furor of the moment is foolishly naive in contrast with the reality behind both Afghaniatan but also Iraq and the GWOT generally. In a land were so many self-appointed technocrats clamor for censorship, soon discussion of the real hefty topics at play will become badspeak and premptively banned, removed, silenced. For example,have fun trying to say one thing about how Israel and Suadi Arabia both had more involvement in 9/11 than Afghanistan did without immediatedly being attacked. Its easier to talk about 3-letter motivations like continued drug, gun money going into black book coffers so they dont have to account to congress only because its something more in the mainstream mind. Another topic thats generally forbidden? Analysis of the media machine that pushed us into war(s) in the first place. I could go on. The point is the real goals are not the presented goals. If you understand that you have a much better chance at real insight.
mcguire 5y ago
Keep in mind that, whether or not the initial invasion of Afghanistan was justified, it immediately became a football in the US political game. George W. Bush was elected on a platform that included "no nation building", and he certainly didn't. (I have a personal theory that the invasion of Iraq was solely due to the fact that the war in Afghanistan as of 2002-3 was not going to get Bush re-elected. Bush also failed to include the costs of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars in his 2005 budget (https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/us/president-s-budget-proposal-military-plan-omits-costs-iraq-afghanistan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/us/president-s-budget-pro...).) The war in Afghanistan was started badly, continued thoughtlessly, and, naturally, ended poorly. As it was originally destined to do.

by kiba 5y ago

merpnderp 5y ago

Afghanistan has always been poor and its people fractured because it was cut off from the world by its topography, but topography can be overcome. If the US had spent the last 20 years building infrastructure, railroads, highways, mining operations, schools to train engineers, managers, and professionals, Afghanistan would likely look a lot different. But the US missed even low hanging fruit like making poppies a legitimate crop by giving Afghanistan a cut of the legal opioid market.

nemo44x 5y ago
60% of Afghanistan is illiterate. An improvement from when NATO forces invaded 20 years ago, but not too much better. I don’t think your infrastructure dreams would have had any efficacy.
- merpnderp 5y ago
  What does someone working in a primitive mine need with literacy? It would be a job that paid a lot better than subsistence farming and might allow that person to send their kids to school to become engineers. Without railroads and highways, Afghanistan will never move forward. It should have been the first thing we did, and not only to link up cities, but to locations with large amounts of natural resources to build up some wealth and industry.
  - watwut 5y ago
    It was making training army difficult for American troops for example. Soldiers complained about it. Such high illiteracy rates will make it impossible to build enough of management and general bureaucracy needed to build anything large. It will make it hard to train workers in technology. You won't build railroads nor roads, you won't mainten them either. Primitive mines are not competitive. They are not producing enough to feed you. And hungry people won't save money for school. You need technology.
MichaelGroves 5y ago
> 20 years building infrastructure, railroads, highways, mining operations, schools to train engineers, managers, and professionals 20 years? Zahir Shah tried this for 40 years. Amanullah Khan also tried, as did several others. Numerous would-be reformers have thought as you do and tried to impose change on Afghanistan, and all their efforts have culminated in the situation we have now. It's been approached from a number of ideological/political directions. Some were monarchs, others proponents of republics. The PDPA/Soviets tried it from a Marxist/Leninist angle with lots of bloodshed, while Zahir Shah tried to create a constitutional monarchy and refrained from murdering his political opponents. Neither succeeded in the end. What would you bring to the table that hasn't been tried before?
- chillwaves 5y ago
  Modern technology? A trillion dollars?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sureglymop 5y ago

The goal was never to "win". It was to build up an army (the afghan army) that could eventually stand by itself and defend the government in place. This was a largely failing effort even years ago, considering that most of the afghan army were made up of people from the north of Afghanistan and previous geopolitics (north/south) play a role. The people in the south would at times trust the taliban over sympathisers for the previous northern warlords which had influence over members of the afghan army. See this documentary (from 8 years ago) about how utterly lost and helpless this situation has always been: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI

int_19h 5y ago
Speaking of north/south divisions... I once spoke with a young adult Afghan refugee who got naturalized in New Zealand - this was a couple years after the Taliban fell. I asked him how he felt about that. I certainly didn't expect the response. He said that Taliban were dangerous religious fanatics, but at least they were predictable fanatics - they had a set of laws, some very harsh, that you had to follow, or else. On the other hand, the Northern Alliance forces, in his telling, were basically just looters - they didn't bring better laws so much so as no laws, just a free-for-all where the guy with the gun takes whatever he wants. So his solution to that dilemma was to emigrate, but he told me that if he couldn't do that, he'd prefer Taliban.
kiba 5y ago
By "win", I meant whatever strategic goal, clearly defined, we hope to accomplish there. And then we spend our full effort to achieve that. If we do not know our goals, and not willing to spend blood and treasure, then what are we doing there?
- arminiusreturns 5y ago
  The problem is the real goals are not revealed to the public, so all the wishywashy stuff about unclear goals is just to fool onlookers while the real goals were accomplished. Anybody who bought into the whole "no such thing as the deep state" in the anti-Trump furor of the moment is foolishly naive in contrast with the reality behind both Afghaniatan but also Iraq and the GWOT generally. In a land were so many self-appointed technocrats clamor for censorship, soon discussion of the real hefty topics at play will become badspeak and premptively banned, removed, silenced. For example,have fun trying to say one thing about how Israel and Suadi Arabia both had more involvement in 9/11 than Afghanistan did without immediatedly being attacked. Its easier to talk about 3-letter motivations like continued drug, gun money going into black book coffers so they dont have to account to congress only because its something more in the mainstream mind. Another topic thats generally forbidden? Analysis of the media machine that pushed us into war(s) in the first place. I could go on. The point is the real goals are not the presented goals. If you understand that you have a much better chance at real insight.

mcguire 5y ago

Keep in mind that, whether or not the initial invasion of Afghanistan was justified, it immediately became a football in the US political game. George W. Bush was elected on a platform that included "no nation building", and he certainly didn't. (I have a personal theory that the invasion of Iraq was solely due to the fact that the war in Afghanistan as of 2002-3 was not going to get Bush re-elected. Bush also failed to include the costs of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars in his 2005 budget (https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/us/president-s-budget-proposal-military-plan-omits-costs-iraq-afghanistan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/us/president-s-budget-pro...).) The war in Afghanistan was started badly, continued thoughtlessly, and, naturally, ended poorly. As it was originally destined to do.