5 ms·

How does this not count as evidence?: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/well/live/vaccine-long-covid-breakthrough-infection.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/

How does this not count as evidence?: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/well/live/vaccine-long-covid-breakthrough-infection.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/well/live/vaccine-long-co... It literally says: "While most of the breakthrough cases were mild or asymptomatic, seven out of 36 workers tracked at six weeks (19 percent) still had persistent symptoms. These long Covid symptoms included a mix of prolonged loss of smell, persistent cough, fatigue, weakness, labored breathing or muscle pain." It's certainly not great data, but it's still the best information we have as of right now.

josephcsible 5y ago
I don't think very many reasonable people would count a "persistent cough" as "becoming disabled".
- Alex3917 5y ago
  When you have a persistent cough due to lung damage then your chances of death the next time you catch a minor illness go through the roof. It's why so many of the people who survived SARS initially are no longer alive.
lp0_on_fire 5y ago
calling that "disabled" is incredibly misleading to the point of being disingenuous.
- Alex3917 5y ago
  I mean if you're basically paralyzed, how does that not count as being disabled? What do you think muscle weakness and fatigue actually means in this context?
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Nobody reasonable would say "muscle weakness and fatigue" means "you're basically paralyzed".
  - lp0_on_fire 5y ago
    Muscle weakness and fatigue is in no way shape or form like paralysis. I'm starting to think you've never encountered someone with a disability in your life.
    - Alex3917 5y ago
      > Muscle weakness and fatigue is in no way shape or form like paralysis. Having muscle weakness in your arms mean that you can't do things like raising your hands to chest level and squeezing someone's hand. In practice it means you can't do everyday things like opening doors, or else can only do them with great difficulty. Having muscle weakness in the legs means that if you're lying on your back, you don't have the ability to raise your legs off the ground. In practice, it means that you can't do everyday things like walking, or else can only do them with great difficulty and probably some form of assistance. It's obviously not exactly the same as being paralyzed, but it's not that far off either. On the spectrum from "I'm not setting new deadlift PRs lately" to "I'm likely going to hospice soon", it's a lot closer to the latter than the former. There's a good chance that it means using a wheelchair, possibly indefinitely. I think you're doing people an extreme disservice by underplaying how serious this is. With paralysis, the cause is usually traumatic spinal cord injury. Whereas with muscle weakness, the cause is usually something more like an autoimmune disease attacking the tissue around your spinal cord. But in both cases the end result is nerve signals not getting properly transmitted, and the impact on everyday life is pretty similar.
      - josephcsible 5y ago
        COVID doesn't cause what you just described as "muscle weakness" in anywhere near 20% of people. The thing it causes that other people describe as "muscle weakness" is much closer to "I'm not setting new deadlift PRs lately".
        Alex3917 5y ago
        Muscle weakness is a standardized medical diagnosis. When you see the term being used in a medical paper, it always means the same thing. C.f.: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0401/p1327.html https://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0401/p1327.html

josephcsible 5y ago

I don't think very many reasonable people would count a "persistent cough" as "becoming disabled".

Alex3917 5y ago
When you have a persistent cough due to lung damage then your chances of death the next time you catch a minor illness go through the roof. It's why so many of the people who survived SARS initially are no longer alive.

lp0_on_fire 5y ago

calling that "disabled" is incredibly misleading to the point of being disingenuous.

Alex3917 5y ago
I mean if you're basically paralyzed, how does that not count as being disabled? What do you think muscle weakness and fatigue actually means in this context?
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Nobody reasonable would say "muscle weakness and fatigue" means "you're basically paralyzed".
- lp0_on_fire 5y ago
  Muscle weakness and fatigue is in no way shape or form like paralysis. I'm starting to think you've never encountered someone with a disability in your life.
  - Alex3917 5y ago
    > Muscle weakness and fatigue is in no way shape or form like paralysis. Having muscle weakness in your arms mean that you can't do things like raising your hands to chest level and squeezing someone's hand. In practice it means you can't do everyday things like opening doors, or else can only do them with great difficulty. Having muscle weakness in the legs means that if you're lying on your back, you don't have the ability to raise your legs off the ground. In practice, it means that you can't do everyday things like walking, or else can only do them with great difficulty and probably some form of assistance. It's obviously not exactly the same as being paralyzed, but it's not that far off either. On the spectrum from "I'm not setting new deadlift PRs lately" to "I'm likely going to hospice soon", it's a lot closer to the latter than the former. There's a good chance that it means using a wheelchair, possibly indefinitely. I think you're doing people an extreme disservice by underplaying how serious this is. With paralysis, the cause is usually traumatic spinal cord injury. Whereas with muscle weakness, the cause is usually something more like an autoimmune disease attacking the tissue around your spinal cord. But in both cases the end result is nerve signals not getting properly transmitted, and the impact on everyday life is pretty similar.
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      COVID doesn't cause what you just described as "muscle weakness" in anywhere near 20% of people. The thing it causes that other people describe as "muscle weakness" is much closer to "I'm not setting new deadlift PRs lately".
      - Alex3917 5y ago
        Muscle weakness is a standardized medical diagnosis. When you see the term being used in a medical paper, it always means the same thing. C.f.: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0401/p1327.html https://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0401/p1327.html