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There is a great chasm between direct action resulting in tragedy and inaction for the preservation of autonomy having an infinitesimally small probability of d

There is a great chasm between direct action resulting in tragedy and inaction for the preservation of autonomy having an infinitesimally small probability of directly resulting in tragedy. Comparing choosing to drive drunk with not choosing to take a particular action that has an infinitesimally small probability of directly causing tragedy are not remotely comparable.

ryandrake 5y ago
Inaction is a deliberate choice. It doesn't matter if it's driven by some misguided notion of "autonomy". Deliberately choosing not to get vaccinated is about as close a comparison with drunk driving as you can get. People are deliberately choosing to behave recklessly, with possible deadly results for others. The only difference is one reckless choice is against the law and one is not.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  No it really isn't a valid comparison and you're clearly more of an ideologue than someone interested in examining the entirety of the situation critically. If the vaccines are effective, then the only people at risk are those that refuse to get it. Everyone is subject to the consequences of their autonomous choice alone. The same is true for potential long term negative effects of the vaccines. Those that refuse to get it are subject to the potential long term effects of COVID, if they get it. And those that get the vaccine are guaranteed to be subject to the long term effects of having done so. Either you believe the vaccines work or you don't. The variants dominated highly vaccinated places like the UK and Israel, so don't blame the unvaccinated for bringing it about. The selective pressure applied to the virus by leaky vaccines is far greater than natural immunity.
  - xur17 5y ago
    > If the vaccines are effective, then the only people at risk are those that refuse to get it. Everyone is subject to the consequences of their autonomous choice alone. Vaccines aren't a binary 100% or 0% effective tool, it's somewhere in the middle. If my 10 coworkers all get the vaccine, it reduces the probability of me contracting the virus, even if I got vaccinated myself. There is a communal aspect to the vaccine that you are missing here.
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      Basically every other vaccine is, that's why they're not leaky.
      - xur17 5y ago
        That is simply not true. We were able to eradicate certain illnesses historically using vaccines by getting the vast majority of the population vaccinated, reducing the rate of spread, but they are never a 100% guarantee. I suggest doing some reading on "herd immunity."
        defaultprimate 5y ago
        It definitely is. I suggest you look up what a "perfect" vaccine is, and how they work. That's what most of the ones that have eradicated diseases are. They allow the body to completely eradicate and prevent infection and transmission. That's what leads to herd immunity. Leaky vaccines work the same way antibacterial soap did to create MRSA. They leave enough virus present to mutate to evade the mechanism originally intended to fight against it, so only the most robust mutations remain.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    Simplifying an efficacy percentage down to a binary "working or not" is a common disinformation tactic. When you do this, you are rounding 90% down to "doesn't work". This doesn't help the discussion. The vaccines reduce chances of death, reduce chances of severe symptoms, reduce chances spread, and reduce chances of infection. But none of them 100%. Boiling that down to "doesn't work" is kind of silly.
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      Not being obese and living a healthy lifestyle are more highly correlated with mild symptoms than vaccination status. That's why virtually all the people hospitalized or dying, vaccinated or not, have at least 1 of 4 or so of the common co-morbidities. We should all eat rationed, nutritionally complete dogfood-equivalent for humans, and have task masters that ensure we do at least 20 minutes of exercise a day. That will be more effective than the vaccine. It's for the common social good, so it's worth it.
- xdennis 5y ago
  > some misguided notion of "autonomy" The way the discourse has evolved in the past two years is unbelievable. You see people deride fundamental concepts of democracy like freedom, the right to protest, and bodily autonomy.
enumjorge 5y ago
We’re talking about health guidelines at the state and national level here. What matters is the big picture not a single data point. No one cares if Joe has the vaccine, we care that X% percentage of the total population has been infected or that Y% percentage of people are vaccinated. We’re in a tech forum do I really need to explain this? The probability of an individual hard drive failing is small. If you’re building a gaming rig, you don’t need to worry about it, if you’re building a data center that small probability becomes a problem. How can you possibly believe those choices aren’t having an effect when we are living the consequences of those actions? The number of cases are going up, younger people are dying, hospitals are filling to capacity.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  Leaky vaccines provide a high degree of selective pressure on viruses. Who knew?! Literally hundreds of renowned virologists and epidemiologists, that's who.
  - enumjorge 5y ago
    Renowned virologists and epidemiologists. You mean the same ones that are telling everyone to get the vaccine?
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      There are credible people on both sides of the argument.
- briffle 5y ago
  My state is essentially out of ICU beds. There are a handful left in Portland. That directly affects anyone that might get in a car accident, severe infection, etc. Most hospitals in this state stopped elective surgery. That effects anyone that has an 'elective' surgury like removing a tumor, delay means they will get much, much worse and have an increased chance of dying. While I'm all for 'personal choice', I feel like COVID cases should be de-prioritized for ICU access.

ryandrake 5y ago

Inaction is a deliberate choice. It doesn't matter if it's driven by some misguided notion of "autonomy". Deliberately choosing not to get vaccinated is about as close a comparison with drunk driving as you can get. People are deliberately choosing to behave recklessly, with possible deadly results for others. The only difference is one reckless choice is against the law and one is not.

defaultprimate 5y ago
No it really isn't a valid comparison and you're clearly more of an ideologue than someone interested in examining the entirety of the situation critically. If the vaccines are effective, then the only people at risk are those that refuse to get it. Everyone is subject to the consequences of their autonomous choice alone. The same is true for potential long term negative effects of the vaccines. Those that refuse to get it are subject to the potential long term effects of COVID, if they get it. And those that get the vaccine are guaranteed to be subject to the long term effects of having done so. Either you believe the vaccines work or you don't. The variants dominated highly vaccinated places like the UK and Israel, so don't blame the unvaccinated for bringing it about. The selective pressure applied to the virus by leaky vaccines is far greater than natural immunity.
- xur17 5y ago
  > If the vaccines are effective, then the only people at risk are those that refuse to get it. Everyone is subject to the consequences of their autonomous choice alone. Vaccines aren't a binary 100% or 0% effective tool, it's somewhere in the middle. If my 10 coworkers all get the vaccine, it reduces the probability of me contracting the virus, even if I got vaccinated myself. There is a communal aspect to the vaccine that you are missing here.
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    Basically every other vaccine is, that's why they're not leaky.
    - xur17 5y ago
      That is simply not true. We were able to eradicate certain illnesses historically using vaccines by getting the vast majority of the population vaccinated, reducing the rate of spread, but they are never a 100% guarantee. I suggest doing some reading on "herd immunity."
      - defaultprimate 5y ago
        It definitely is. I suggest you look up what a "perfect" vaccine is, and how they work. That's what most of the ones that have eradicated diseases are. They allow the body to completely eradicate and prevent infection and transmission. That's what leads to herd immunity. Leaky vaccines work the same way antibacterial soap did to create MRSA. They leave enough virus present to mutate to evade the mechanism originally intended to fight against it, so only the most robust mutations remain.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Simplifying an efficacy percentage down to a binary "working or not" is a common disinformation tactic. When you do this, you are rounding 90% down to "doesn't work". This doesn't help the discussion. The vaccines reduce chances of death, reduce chances of severe symptoms, reduce chances spread, and reduce chances of infection. But none of them 100%. Boiling that down to "doesn't work" is kind of silly.
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    Not being obese and living a healthy lifestyle are more highly correlated with mild symptoms than vaccination status. That's why virtually all the people hospitalized or dying, vaccinated or not, have at least 1 of 4 or so of the common co-morbidities. We should all eat rationed, nutritionally complete dogfood-equivalent for humans, and have task masters that ensure we do at least 20 minutes of exercise a day. That will be more effective than the vaccine. It's for the common social good, so it's worth it.
xdennis 5y ago
> some misguided notion of "autonomy" The way the discourse has evolved in the past two years is unbelievable. You see people deride fundamental concepts of democracy like freedom, the right to protest, and bodily autonomy.

enumjorge 5y ago

We’re talking about health guidelines at the state and national level here. What matters is the big picture not a single data point. No one cares if Joe has the vaccine, we care that X% percentage of the total population has been infected or that Y% percentage of people are vaccinated. We’re in a tech forum do I really need to explain this? The probability of an individual hard drive failing is small. If you’re building a gaming rig, you don’t need to worry about it, if you’re building a data center that small probability becomes a problem. How can you possibly believe those choices aren’t having an effect when we are living the consequences of those actions? The number of cases are going up, younger people are dying, hospitals are filling to capacity.

defaultprimate 5y ago
Leaky vaccines provide a high degree of selective pressure on viruses. Who knew?! Literally hundreds of renowned virologists and epidemiologists, that's who.
- enumjorge 5y ago
  Renowned virologists and epidemiologists. You mean the same ones that are telling everyone to get the vaccine?
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    There are credible people on both sides of the argument.
briffle 5y ago
My state is essentially out of ICU beds. There are a handful left in Portland. That directly affects anyone that might get in a car accident, severe infection, etc. Most hospitals in this state stopped elective surgery. That effects anyone that has an 'elective' surgury like removing a tumor, delay means they will get much, much worse and have an increased chance of dying. While I'm all for 'personal choice', I feel like COVID cases should be de-prioritized for ICU access.