6 ms·

> we need more time to assess the long-term effects You seem to be saying that the only issue is a question of time. Be specific: how much time? Will you say a

by evan_ 5y ago

> we need more time to assess the long-term effects You seem to be saying that the only issue is a question of time. Be specific: how much time? Will you say a specific number? “I will accept an mRNA-based vaccine if it has been around, and proven safe, for x years.”

sharken 5y ago
Something similar to the Rubella vaccine that took about four years to be licensed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella_vaccine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella_vaccine
- oblio 5y ago
  My problem with this "we just have to wait N units of time" approach is: what do we do instead meanwhile? What's the alternative?
  - sharken 5y ago
    That's the hard part, I'm all for giving the vaccine to all who wants it. And at the same time not forcing everyone to take the vaccine. As an example Denmark will reach about 75% vaccinated without any mandates, though a Corona passport will be in effect until October 2021. That is one of the better ways of handling it in my opinion.
    - oblio 5y ago
      The thing is, I don't think there's any democratic country where there's an actual "vaccine mandate". Nobody there is forcing anyone to get vaccinated. It's done through "Corona passports". And on top of that, countries like Denmark have much higher levels of social trust than countries like the US.
      - ghaff 5y ago
        While at least generally true, requiring to go into many workplaces (and therefore stay employed) and many other indoor locations is pretty close to a mandate if widely implemented. I'm not saying I disagree with doing this, but it gets close to forcing people in all but name.
        oblio 5y ago
        I can't say that I've been following Danish news, but I can tell you for sure that for example in Italy hospitals and other institutions have asked for Covid vaccination in order to stay employed. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Denmark does the same, and more, if vaccinations number don't reach the thresholds needed to prevent healthcare systems from collapsing. And you should know that Denmark is far from as "laissez faire" as many Americans imagine. For example even before Covid they were enforcing some very harsh social measures targeting self-isolating communities, in order to maintain social cohesion, for example.
        sdenton4 5y ago
        That's a good thing. If it's personally painful to not get the vaccine, we'll have many more vaccinations, which will lead to better public (and economic!) health. Freedom of choice does not mean freedom from consequences. BTW, if you /don't/ get the vaccine, you'll still almost-certainly get covid antibodies eventually, via contracting the virus. As a reminder, the virus itself has not been FDA approved, and is known to have both short and long-term harmful side effects. The vaccine is many orders of magnitude safer than the virus.
        ghaff 5y ago
        Trust me. I'm not arguing against vaccines at all and I got one as soon as I could. However, I think most of us would agree that literally vaccinating people by force would be wrong. So I also don't think it's unreasonable to be at least a bit discomfited when some combination of government at multiple levels and employers make it harder for unvaccinated people to earn a living and participate in society. Even if at the end of the day I approve of many of those requirements--for example I need to prove vaccination status to go to a planned industry event next month which seems very reasonable--I certainly take no joy in such coercion and recognize that it is further polarizing. Sure it's just "consequences" but those consequences are such that it's also not really a choice.
  - 34679 5y ago
    3.2 serious outcomes per 100,000 infections. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628...
    - oblio 5y ago
      Hey, cherry picker, how is your business going? > and the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people in <<the under-60 crowd>> (3.2 per 100,000)
      - 34679 5y ago
        >the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category So .18% for the most at-risk portion of the unvaccinated. This is the latest data on Delta from the most vaccinated country in the world.
        oblio 5y ago
        Something doesn't add up: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prove-vaccines-works-delta-pfizer-1.10101640 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prov... Besides that, just their overall fatality rate beats your numbers, let alone serious cases.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- kenjackson 5y ago
  Why four years? Why not 40? That number seems just as arbitrary as the 10 months we've seen so far. I think the part that seem hypocritical is that people that I know don't apply the same rigor in other parts of their life. They use recreational drugs that are sourced from who knows where with no clinical trials and a high percentage of adverse reactions even amongst our small community.
YPPH 5y ago
>You seem to be saying that the only issue is a question of time. Be specific: how much time? Until it makes it into Debian stable repositories.

by evan_ 5y ago

sharken 5y ago

Something similar to the Rubella vaccine that took about four years to be licensed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella_vaccine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella_vaccine

oblio 5y ago
My problem with this "we just have to wait N units of time" approach is: what do we do instead meanwhile? What's the alternative?
- sharken 5y ago
  That's the hard part, I'm all for giving the vaccine to all who wants it. And at the same time not forcing everyone to take the vaccine. As an example Denmark will reach about 75% vaccinated without any mandates, though a Corona passport will be in effect until October 2021. That is one of the better ways of handling it in my opinion.
  - oblio 5y ago
    The thing is, I don't think there's any democratic country where there's an actual "vaccine mandate". Nobody there is forcing anyone to get vaccinated. It's done through "Corona passports". And on top of that, countries like Denmark have much higher levels of social trust than countries like the US.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      While at least generally true, requiring to go into many workplaces (and therefore stay employed) and many other indoor locations is pretty close to a mandate if widely implemented. I'm not saying I disagree with doing this, but it gets close to forcing people in all but name.
      - oblio 5y ago
        I can't say that I've been following Danish news, but I can tell you for sure that for example in Italy hospitals and other institutions have asked for Covid vaccination in order to stay employed. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Denmark does the same, and more, if vaccinations number don't reach the thresholds needed to prevent healthcare systems from collapsing. And you should know that Denmark is far from as "laissez faire" as many Americans imagine. For example even before Covid they were enforcing some very harsh social measures targeting self-isolating communities, in order to maintain social cohesion, for example.
      - sdenton4 5y ago
        That's a good thing. If it's personally painful to not get the vaccine, we'll have many more vaccinations, which will lead to better public (and economic!) health. Freedom of choice does not mean freedom from consequences. BTW, if you /don't/ get the vaccine, you'll still almost-certainly get covid antibodies eventually, via contracting the virus. As a reminder, the virus itself has not been FDA approved, and is known to have both short and long-term harmful side effects. The vaccine is many orders of magnitude safer than the virus.
        ghaff 5y ago
        Trust me. I'm not arguing against vaccines at all and I got one as soon as I could. However, I think most of us would agree that literally vaccinating people by force would be wrong. So I also don't think it's unreasonable to be at least a bit discomfited when some combination of government at multiple levels and employers make it harder for unvaccinated people to earn a living and participate in society. Even if at the end of the day I approve of many of those requirements--for example I need to prove vaccination status to go to a planned industry event next month which seems very reasonable--I certainly take no joy in such coercion and recognize that it is further polarizing. Sure it's just "consequences" but those consequences are such that it's also not really a choice.
- 34679 5y ago
  3.2 serious outcomes per 100,000 infections. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628...
  - oblio 5y ago
    Hey, cherry picker, how is your business going? > and the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people in <<the under-60 crowd>> (3.2 per 100,000)
    - 34679 5y ago
      >the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category So .18% for the most at-risk portion of the unvaccinated. This is the latest data on Delta from the most vaccinated country in the world.
      - oblio 5y ago
        Something doesn't add up: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prove-vaccines-works-delta-pfizer-1.10101640 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prov... Besides that, just their overall fatality rate beats your numbers, let alone serious cases.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
kenjackson 5y ago
Why four years? Why not 40? That number seems just as arbitrary as the 10 months we've seen so far. I think the part that seem hypocritical is that people that I know don't apply the same rigor in other parts of their life. They use recreational drugs that are sourced from who knows where with no clinical trials and a high percentage of adverse reactions even amongst our small community.

YPPH 5y ago

>You seem to be saying that the only issue is a question of time. Be specific: how much time? Until it makes it into Debian stable repositories.