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Concern? Why? The virus is under control in countries where the vaccine rollout has been swift. Why do you sound so keen to force something on people that they

Concern? Why? The virus is under control in countries where the vaccine rollout has been swift. Why do you sound so keen to force something on people that they don't want, regardless of their reasons? Shouldn't people have the right to choose what they take? If people can lose their jobs over it then clearly they don't have that right - that's a form of coercion/blackmail. I think the focus on a small minority of people who don't want to take a vaccine is unhealthy.

cle 5y ago
> Shouldn't people have the right to choose what they take? It's not this simple. Not taking a vaccine during a pandemic has negative externalities, since you're increasing the risk of infection and death of those you interact with, you increase the likelihood of consuming scarce resources (such as ICU beds), etc. I largely agree with you, but framing it as a simple "individual choice" issue is reductive at best.
- c7DJTLrn 5y ago
  1. Those who are vaccinated have a significant reduction in risk of death (not to mention that the risk is very minute for young people anyway), so that's a moot point 2. Some vaccinated people have been found to carry the same levels of the virus as unvaccinated people, so stating that unvaccinated people could be increasing risk to others is also a moot point 3. Once the so called "R" rate is below one, the virus is on a path to fizzling out It's not as though unvaccinated people will be dying in their thousands for centuries to come. Herd immunity just needs to kick in which many countries have already achieved.
  - eightysixfour 5y ago
    1) It isn’t a moot point when vaccinated individuals need ICU beds for other emergencies, which are still happening. This isn’t a theoretical, this is happening in the Southeastern US.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - bluGill 5y ago
    > Some vaccinated people have been found to carry the same levels of the virus as unvaccinated people, so stating that unvaccinated people could be increasing risk to others is also a moot point Some is in this case a small minority. In general you have the same level up to about day 5, then vaccinated drops down to zero over the next few days while vaccinated levels keep raising for several more days.
  - renaudg 5y ago
    Even with the "same level of virus" vaccinated people are much less contagious : https://twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1429449468261322759 https://twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1429449468261322759
- bopbeepboop 5y ago
  All of those externalities apply to driving a car. Are you saying it would be legal to ban cars for those reasons?
  - cle 5y ago
    No, I'm not saying anything about whether vaccines should be mandatory or not. Whatever your beliefs, you should be taking these externalities into account. I think there are reasonable, good faith arguments for both voluntary and involuntary vaccination, that still account for these negative externalities--pretending they don't exist does nobody any favors, and we should disregard arguments that ignore them.
bastardoperator 5y ago
It's socially irresponsible and the impact to others is possible death. I wouldn't have a problem if these people weren't spreading death to others, but instead, they choose to force themselves on the rest of us because "freedom". The same people that don't understand vaccines are also likely to think masks don't work, so they take zero precautions when it comes to their safety and others. The focus is just, these folks are robbing everyone else of their freedom and happiness.
- c7DJTLrn 5y ago
  Please see my other reply. Vaccinated people have a significantly reduced risk of death, so there is virtually no risk from being exposed to those without a vaccination. >The same people that don't understand vaccines are also likely to think masks don't work I don't see how this is relevant. It just seems like a strawman argument to dismiss people who might have legitimate reasons for not having the vaccine or otherwise just want to exercise their right not to have it.
  - bastardoperator 5y ago
    Cool story, the facts however show unvaccinated people are filling up hospitals and children under 12 which account for approx 75 million people or approx 20%+ of the population in the US are now being impacted and they're not eligible for vaccination.
- Markoff 5y ago
  being obese is socially irresponsible in these times, yet I don't see obese people banned from buying junk food and going to eat junk food in restaurants
  - bluGill 5y ago
    The obese don't go around killing kids.
    - Markoff 5y ago
thehappypm 5y ago
Because getting COVID becomes a problem for every person you come in contact with! Getting vaccinated protects you first, but also stops you from personally handing a disease to everyone you're in contact with. The people around you shouldn't be punished because you like Fox News.
- c7DJTLrn 5y ago
  What has Fox News got to do with anything? Do you see this as a political issue? What about people with immune dysfunction? Are you going to dismiss them as Fox News viewers too because aren't having the vaccine?
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    Yes, it's highly politicized. Marjorie Taylor-Greene, a congresswoman from Georgia, is a huge rising conservative star in the style of Trump. She's downright anti-vaccine. "These vaccines are failing and do not reduce the spread of the virus and neither do masks".
    - c7DJTLrn 5y ago
      Well, that statement of hers is blatantly stupid, I think we can agree on that. But please don't lump people like me concerned about infringement on rights and bodily autonomy with people who deny facts and cannot understand what a mitigation measure is. And more importantly, please don't make vaccination a political issue. Because you will be dividing everyone over this much more dramatically.
      - thehappypm 5y ago
        I would love for vaccination to not be a political issue, it's just the sad truth. The vaccination rate is deeply coordinated with the Democratic voting rate.
- linuxftw 5y ago
  100% false. The vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission.
hcurtiss 5y ago
>” The virus is under control in countries where the vaccine rollout has been swift.” Israel would like a word with you. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628...

cle 5y ago

> Shouldn't people have the right to choose what they take? It's not this simple. Not taking a vaccine during a pandemic has negative externalities, since you're increasing the risk of infection and death of those you interact with, you increase the likelihood of consuming scarce resources (such as ICU beds), etc. I largely agree with you, but framing it as a simple "individual choice" issue is reductive at best.

c7DJTLrn 5y ago
1. Those who are vaccinated have a significant reduction in risk of death (not to mention that the risk is very minute for young people anyway), so that's a moot point 2. Some vaccinated people have been found to carry the same levels of the virus as unvaccinated people, so stating that unvaccinated people could be increasing risk to others is also a moot point 3. Once the so called "R" rate is below one, the virus is on a path to fizzling out It's not as though unvaccinated people will be dying in their thousands for centuries to come. Herd immunity just needs to kick in which many countries have already achieved.
- eightysixfour 5y ago
  1) It isn’t a moot point when vaccinated individuals need ICU beds for other emergencies, which are still happening. This isn’t a theoretical, this is happening in the Southeastern US.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- bluGill 5y ago
  > Some vaccinated people have been found to carry the same levels of the virus as unvaccinated people, so stating that unvaccinated people could be increasing risk to others is also a moot point Some is in this case a small minority. In general you have the same level up to about day 5, then vaccinated drops down to zero over the next few days while vaccinated levels keep raising for several more days.
- renaudg 5y ago
  Even with the "same level of virus" vaccinated people are much less contagious : https://twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1429449468261322759 https://twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1429449468261322759
bopbeepboop 5y ago
All of those externalities apply to driving a car. Are you saying it would be legal to ban cars for those reasons?
- cle 5y ago
  No, I'm not saying anything about whether vaccines should be mandatory or not. Whatever your beliefs, you should be taking these externalities into account. I think there are reasonable, good faith arguments for both voluntary and involuntary vaccination, that still account for these negative externalities--pretending they don't exist does nobody any favors, and we should disregard arguments that ignore them.

bastardoperator 5y ago

It's socially irresponsible and the impact to others is possible death. I wouldn't have a problem if these people weren't spreading death to others, but instead, they choose to force themselves on the rest of us because "freedom". The same people that don't understand vaccines are also likely to think masks don't work, so they take zero precautions when it comes to their safety and others. The focus is just, these folks are robbing everyone else of their freedom and happiness.

c7DJTLrn 5y ago
Please see my other reply. Vaccinated people have a significantly reduced risk of death, so there is virtually no risk from being exposed to those without a vaccination. >The same people that don't understand vaccines are also likely to think masks don't work I don't see how this is relevant. It just seems like a strawman argument to dismiss people who might have legitimate reasons for not having the vaccine or otherwise just want to exercise their right not to have it.
- bastardoperator 5y ago
  Cool story, the facts however show unvaccinated people are filling up hospitals and children under 12 which account for approx 75 million people or approx 20%+ of the population in the US are now being impacted and they're not eligible for vaccination.
Markoff 5y ago
being obese is socially irresponsible in these times, yet I don't see obese people banned from buying junk food and going to eat junk food in restaurants
- bluGill 5y ago
  The obese don't go around killing kids.
  - Markoff 5y ago

thehappypm 5y ago

Because getting COVID becomes a problem for every person you come in contact with! Getting vaccinated protects you first, but also stops you from personally handing a disease to everyone you're in contact with. The people around you shouldn't be punished because you like Fox News.

c7DJTLrn 5y ago
What has Fox News got to do with anything? Do you see this as a political issue? What about people with immune dysfunction? Are you going to dismiss them as Fox News viewers too because aren't having the vaccine?
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Yes, it's highly politicized. Marjorie Taylor-Greene, a congresswoman from Georgia, is a huge rising conservative star in the style of Trump. She's downright anti-vaccine. "These vaccines are failing and do not reduce the spread of the virus and neither do masks".
  - c7DJTLrn 5y ago
    Well, that statement of hers is blatantly stupid, I think we can agree on that. But please don't lump people like me concerned about infringement on rights and bodily autonomy with people who deny facts and cannot understand what a mitigation measure is. And more importantly, please don't make vaccination a political issue. Because you will be dividing everyone over this much more dramatically.
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      I would love for vaccination to not be a political issue, it's just the sad truth. The vaccination rate is deeply coordinated with the Democratic voting rate.
linuxftw 5y ago
100% false. The vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission.

hcurtiss 5y ago

>” The virus is under control in countries where the vaccine rollout has been swift.” Israel would like a word with you. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628...