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It's a PSA: if you have an implanted defibrillator, don't keep iPhone 12 in a shirt pocket. No need for any more drama than that. Reminds me of antennagate, to

It's a PSA: if you have an implanted defibrillator, don't keep iPhone 12 in a shirt pocket. No need for any more drama than that. Reminds me of antennagate, to which Jobs responded: "Don't hold it that way."

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
Idk, with my life on the line I wouldn’t buy an iPhone 12 at all. Sure, I don’t usually keep my phone in my shirt pocket, but it’s a fairly natural thing to do in some circumstances, what if I forget?
- bradknowles 5y ago
  I’ve carried my iPhone in my shirt pocket for almost as long as the iPhone has been in existence. I’m current,y in the iPhone 7 Plus, because the 8 didn’t have anything I wanted, and I refuse to use Face ID for anything. I’m also over fifty, overweight, and am more likely than average to need a pacemaker or similar device within the next few years. I hadn’t considered the iPhone 12 problem until now, after it has been explained to me. Yikes!
- agent327 5y ago
  Nah, that wouldn't happen more than once.
  - multiplegeorges 5y ago
    That's a wildly flippant response this issue. "ah, you'll be fine" seriously? Think of the likely user who has a pacemaker. They are probably a man, he's probably in his 60s, 70s, or 80s. He's likely not all that familiar with the intricacies of modern phones. His kids probably convinced him to get a phone so he could stay in touch more easily. That's the audience we're talking about here. It'll happen a lot and while it's happening the lifesaving device is fully disabled. That's a big deal.
    - kemayo 5y ago
      The joke was "it will only happen once, because it will kill you". (Which is inaccurate, of course, since it sounds from the article like disabling a pacemaker in this way will only open up an opportunity for your heart to fail.)
      - panzagl 5y ago
        90% of my upvote usage on HN is balancing out people who have no sense of humor.
        agent327 5y ago
        It's appreciated! :-)
    - btown 5y ago
      The user could also fall asleep and the phone could end up resting on the chest area - and they may never even know that's something to look out for!
ekianjo 5y ago
> Reminds me of antennagate So a problem of phone calls disconnecting reminds you of phones causing cardiac problems with people using pacemakers?
okdjnfweonfe 5y ago
"if you have an implanted defibrillator, don't keep iPhone 12 in a shirt pocket. [or you might die [vastly sooner than the average person]]" Kinda worth making some drama about it, no?
- oneplane 5y ago
  Is it? Sometimes all you can do is inform. People will still ignore it and do it anyway and die earlier (tobacco, alcohol).
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  How much drama do we make about other magnets?
  - webmobdev 5y ago
    What other strong magnets do you keep in your pocket or come into contact with regularly, that can interfere with an implanted medical device that can cause an organ failure?
    - pc86 5y ago
      Nobody is forcing anyone to keep any particular magnet anywhere. Plenty of people, including successful tech and non-tech people, do just fine without smartphones. iOS is not a requisite for a fulfilling life. Note it, inform people about it, mitigate the effects where possible and research ways to eliminate the issue entirely. But it's not exactly an emergency by any reasonable definition and the pearl-clutching "drama" is a bit much.
  - bdcravens 5y ago
    Little, because devices that have strong magnets do a good job of disclosing the fact.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Yeah, it's definitely worth the drama, but personally I'm more scandalized that biomedical engineers still use unmodulated magnetic fields to switch implanted defibrillators than I am scandalized by the fact that the iPhone emits a magnetic field. iPhones aren't the only thing that emits a magnetic field. Not by a long shot. Not by accident, not by intent. I'm sure being able to use a magnet to switch these implants is handy, but putting inductive transceivers on every EMT's toolbelt and in every operating room isn't a physics challenge or an engineering challenge, not with the amount of money in the medical world. It's an implementation challenge, yes, but it's one that should have happened 20 years ago. Due to the severity of their work the medical community is used to always getting its way, but in this case they're the ones who need to shape up.
tener 5y ago
A warning is good thing, but the drama is less welcome. Blaming Apple is absurd too: the defibrillators have built-in kill switch that responds to strong magnetic fields. At the time where this was designed it was concluded that it is very unlikely for such strong magnetic fields to occur in real life. Well, that assumption is wrong these days. It is a responsibility of the designers of the medical devices to assure they are safe. Furthermore they naturally have to be replaced every few years, so it isn't even hard to phase out the outdated design in a coordinated fashion. But I guess this costs money and it is cheaper to blame others.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  Seems to me like both the cell phone maker and the medical device maker want to pass the blame to each other. That said, medical devices should get more leeway here - they already come with warnings, just like medicines too (e.g. don't take with alcohol). When a device is implanted the doctors and the manufacturer pass on the warnings to the patient. However, they obviously can't pass on warnings about future tech that they didn't predict would exist and interfere with their device. In such cases, since Apple's new tech is the one causing the issues, I feel Apple (and other phone manufacturers) need to be more proactive and should publicise and caution the public that their mobile phone may interfere with implanted medical devices.
- treesknees 5y ago
  Pacemakers need to be replaced every 5-15 years as the battery wears out [1]. It's not like a visit to the dentist either, it's a major surgery. I also think you underestimate how rapidly a medical device company can make a dramatic change to the design, have it tested and approved, and distributed inside everyday people. Yes it's "coordinated" but the timeline is extremely long compared to how often the phone market is being pumped full of magnets. For what it's worth I think it's still up to the user to be safe and know what they can and cannot have up against their chest. But to say that the medical community can just be "agile" about this is to really misunderstand how those devices are certified and designed. [1] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/implantable-device-replacement-procedure https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...
philjohn 5y ago
Or 12 inches away if wirelessly charging - so if you charge your phone on your nightstand that may cause an issue if super close to you.
bdcravens 5y ago
Apple did more than just utter a sentence. Everyone who owned one of the phones was entitled to a free bumper case, and Apple eventually settled a class-action suit, agreeing to pay $15/user.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

Idk, with my life on the line I wouldn’t buy an iPhone 12 at all. Sure, I don’t usually keep my phone in my shirt pocket, but it’s a fairly natural thing to do in some circumstances, what if I forget?

bradknowles 5y ago
I’ve carried my iPhone in my shirt pocket for almost as long as the iPhone has been in existence. I’m current,y in the iPhone 7 Plus, because the 8 didn’t have anything I wanted, and I refuse to use Face ID for anything. I’m also over fifty, overweight, and am more likely than average to need a pacemaker or similar device within the next few years. I hadn’t considered the iPhone 12 problem until now, after it has been explained to me. Yikes!
agent327 5y ago
Nah, that wouldn't happen more than once.
- multiplegeorges 5y ago
  That's a wildly flippant response this issue. "ah, you'll be fine" seriously? Think of the likely user who has a pacemaker. They are probably a man, he's probably in his 60s, 70s, or 80s. He's likely not all that familiar with the intricacies of modern phones. His kids probably convinced him to get a phone so he could stay in touch more easily. That's the audience we're talking about here. It'll happen a lot and while it's happening the lifesaving device is fully disabled. That's a big deal.
  - kemayo 5y ago
    The joke was "it will only happen once, because it will kill you". (Which is inaccurate, of course, since it sounds from the article like disabling a pacemaker in this way will only open up an opportunity for your heart to fail.)
    - panzagl 5y ago
      90% of my upvote usage on HN is balancing out people who have no sense of humor.
      - agent327 5y ago
        It's appreciated! :-)
  - btown 5y ago
    The user could also fall asleep and the phone could end up resting on the chest area - and they may never even know that's something to look out for!

ekianjo 5y ago

> Reminds me of antennagate So a problem of phone calls disconnecting reminds you of phones causing cardiac problems with people using pacemakers?

okdjnfweonfe 5y ago

"if you have an implanted defibrillator, don't keep iPhone 12 in a shirt pocket. [or you might die [vastly sooner than the average person]]" Kinda worth making some drama about it, no?

oneplane 5y ago
Is it? Sometimes all you can do is inform. People will still ignore it and do it anyway and die earlier (tobacco, alcohol).
droopyEyelids 5y ago
How much drama do we make about other magnets?
- webmobdev 5y ago
  What other strong magnets do you keep in your pocket or come into contact with regularly, that can interfere with an implanted medical device that can cause an organ failure?
  - pc86 5y ago
    Nobody is forcing anyone to keep any particular magnet anywhere. Plenty of people, including successful tech and non-tech people, do just fine without smartphones. iOS is not a requisite for a fulfilling life. Note it, inform people about it, mitigate the effects where possible and research ways to eliminate the issue entirely. But it's not exactly an emergency by any reasonable definition and the pearl-clutching "drama" is a bit much.
- bdcravens 5y ago
  Little, because devices that have strong magnets do a good job of disclosing the fact.
jjoonathan 5y ago
Yeah, it's definitely worth the drama, but personally I'm more scandalized that biomedical engineers still use unmodulated magnetic fields to switch implanted defibrillators than I am scandalized by the fact that the iPhone emits a magnetic field. iPhones aren't the only thing that emits a magnetic field. Not by a long shot. Not by accident, not by intent. I'm sure being able to use a magnet to switch these implants is handy, but putting inductive transceivers on every EMT's toolbelt and in every operating room isn't a physics challenge or an engineering challenge, not with the amount of money in the medical world. It's an implementation challenge, yes, but it's one that should have happened 20 years ago. Due to the severity of their work the medical community is used to always getting its way, but in this case they're the ones who need to shape up.

tener 5y ago

A warning is good thing, but the drama is less welcome. Blaming Apple is absurd too: the defibrillators have built-in kill switch that responds to strong magnetic fields. At the time where this was designed it was concluded that it is very unlikely for such strong magnetic fields to occur in real life. Well, that assumption is wrong these days. It is a responsibility of the designers of the medical devices to assure they are safe. Furthermore they naturally have to be replaced every few years, so it isn't even hard to phase out the outdated design in a coordinated fashion. But I guess this costs money and it is cheaper to blame others.

webmobdev 5y ago
Seems to me like both the cell phone maker and the medical device maker want to pass the blame to each other. That said, medical devices should get more leeway here - they already come with warnings, just like medicines too (e.g. don't take with alcohol). When a device is implanted the doctors and the manufacturer pass on the warnings to the patient. However, they obviously can't pass on warnings about future tech that they didn't predict would exist and interfere with their device. In such cases, since Apple's new tech is the one causing the issues, I feel Apple (and other phone manufacturers) need to be more proactive and should publicise and caution the public that their mobile phone may interfere with implanted medical devices.
treesknees 5y ago
Pacemakers need to be replaced every 5-15 years as the battery wears out [1]. It's not like a visit to the dentist either, it's a major surgery. I also think you underestimate how rapidly a medical device company can make a dramatic change to the design, have it tested and approved, and distributed inside everyday people. Yes it's "coordinated" but the timeline is extremely long compared to how often the phone market is being pumped full of magnets. For what it's worth I think it's still up to the user to be safe and know what they can and cannot have up against their chest. But to say that the medical community can just be "agile" about this is to really misunderstand how those devices are certified and designed. [1] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/implantable-device-replacement-procedure https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

philjohn 5y ago

Or 12 inches away if wirelessly charging - so if you charge your phone on your nightstand that may cause an issue if super close to you.

bdcravens 5y ago

Apple did more than just utter a sentence. Everyone who owned one of the phones was entitled to a free bumper case, and Apple eventually settled a class-action suit, agreeing to pay $15/user.