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I can confirm the Afghans I worked with between 2012-2014 maintaining regular contact with using Facebook and FB Messenger have all shifted coms to WhatsApp, Si

I can confirm the Afghans I worked with between 2012-2014 maintaining regular contact with using Facebook and FB Messenger have all shifted coms to WhatsApp, Signal, and Telegram. This all occurred rapidly in the last week due to fears stemming from rumours circulating about Pakistani ISI backed Taliban gaining technical intercept capability. True or not, the rumours had a significant effect on many Afghans.

hypertele-Xii 5y ago
> using Facebook and FB Messenger have all shifted coms to WhatsApp So... from Facebook to Facebook?
- scrollaway 5y ago
  From Facebook cleartext to e2ee.
  - hansel_der 5y ago
    i'd say that e2ee is kinda strawman argument as long as neither end is secure (under your control).
  - zelphirkalt 5y ago
    I would not put it past FB to cooperate with the Taliban to reveal private communication via Whatsapp to the Taliban. Then put forth some weak argument like: "Well, Taliban are now the new Afghan government and we respect wishes of governments around the world. We had no choice." when someone calls them out on it. (Edit: As was revealed before, WA told the creator of the encryption protocol used in Signal to change things about it, when implementing the protocol for WA, which enable WA in theory to hold a third party decryption key.)
    - yoavm 5y ago
      Where was this revealed? genuinely curious, I never heard about this.
    - dTal 5y ago
      You're alleging that Moxie Marlinspike deliberately compromised the security of WhatsApp on request?
    - tg180 5y ago
      I'm very wary of Whatsapp, but I don't think that's accurate. They have a LE portal, and in the FAQ they state what they are able to provide. [ https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/security-and-privacy/information-for-law-enforcement-authorities/?lang=en https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/security-and-privacy/inform... ] > In the ordinary course of providing our service, WhatsApp does not store messages once they are delivered or transaction logs of such delivered messages. Undelivered messages are deleted from our servers after 30 days. As stated in the WhatsApp Privacy Policy, we may collect, use, preserve, and share user information if we have a good-faith belief that it is reasonably necessary to (a) keep our users safe, (b) detect, investigate, and prevent illegal activity, (c) respond to legal process, or to government requests, (d) enforce our Terms and policies. This may include information about how some users interact with others on our service. We also offer end-to-end encryption for our services, which is always activated. End-to-end encryption means that messages are encrypted to protect against WhatsApp and third parties from reading them. Additional information about WhatsApp's security can be found here. So only metadata and everything that's not e2e. Certainly, if the demands were complied with, metadata alone would be sufficient to rebuild your communication network if the Taliban already know who you are and what are you talking about.
      - ptero 5y ago
        > So only metadata [can be shared] and everything that's not e2e. This is probably the best info anyway. What you speak about with a suspected enemy of the state is a lot less important for oppressive regimes than the fact that you (regularly) do. The content can be obtained from in person ... discussion. When a service doesn't care about presumption of innocence or torturing a few extra citizens, meta is probably all they need. Now I do not think Taliban itself would be able to pull it off, but if the ISI is involved it is another story.
    - skissane 5y ago
      The Taliban are still under US trade sanctions, and it would likely violate those sanctions were Facebook to cooperate with their requests. So, at least for now, your scenario is unlikely to happen. (Even with e2e encryption, they still have clear text metadata which oppressive governments may find useful - if they know you talked to a known dissident, they may assume you are one too, even if they can’t see what you said.)
    - zelphirkalt 5y ago
      Correction: Apparently I remembered wrongly and the issue with e2ee in WA is more complex. Apparently it is not directly about a simple third party key on the side of WA, but instead about key changes and automatic re-transmission of messages encrypted with replaced keys: https://www.enisa.europa.eu/publications/info-notes/about-the-alleged-whatsapp-backdoor https://www.enisa.europa.eu/publications/info-notes/about-th... I am sorry for any factually wrong implications my comment had. In effect however, if WA triggers a key change, WA might be able to create a third party key that matches the exchanged keys. This might be what other voices relate to: https://then24.com/2021/06/18/moxie-marlinspike-the-hacker-who-challenges-whatsapp/ https://then24.com/2021/06/18/moxie-marlinspike-the-hacker-w...: > “All messages on WhatsApp are encrypted, but Facebook can, voluntarily or at the request of a government, turn it off for certain users or certain areas. And we cannot know when it does, ”explains Jan Penfrat, political advisor to the activists network. As to the trustworthiness of those sources, I do not have information.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  indeed not a very favourable switch, but i guess the metadata from whatsapp is better protected than messenges posted to facebook.
hd4 5y ago
"ISI-backed" Is there somewhere credible I can learn more about the connection between the taliban and the ISI?
- rocknor 5y ago
  The connection between the Pakistani ISI and the Taliban is very well documented. https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/117472/DP%2018.pdf https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/117472/DP%2018.pdf https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghan2/Afghan0701-02.htm https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghan2/Afghan0701-02.htm https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/08/06/an-uneasy-limbo-for-us-pakistan-relations-amidst-the-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/08/06/a...
  - notsureaboutpg 5y ago
    That Brookings Institute page did not say anything close to "the ISI backs the Taliban in X material, provable way". It just mentioned that despite Pakistan's official stance on the Taliban, they "may" see them as preferable to the (now former) Afghan government, which has stronger ties to India, despite the Taliban's ties (ties are never explained just asserted) to a militant group in Pakistan that Pakistan actually has fought and spent material effort defeating... I hope all the sources aren't as bunk as that one...

hypertele-Xii 5y ago

> using Facebook and FB Messenger have all shifted coms to WhatsApp So... from Facebook to Facebook?

scrollaway 5y ago
From Facebook cleartext to e2ee.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  i'd say that e2ee is kinda strawman argument as long as neither end is secure (under your control).
- zelphirkalt 5y ago
  I would not put it past FB to cooperate with the Taliban to reveal private communication via Whatsapp to the Taliban. Then put forth some weak argument like: "Well, Taliban are now the new Afghan government and we respect wishes of governments around the world. We had no choice." when someone calls them out on it. (Edit: As was revealed before, WA told the creator of the encryption protocol used in Signal to change things about it, when implementing the protocol for WA, which enable WA in theory to hold a third party decryption key.)
  - yoavm 5y ago
    Where was this revealed? genuinely curious, I never heard about this.
  - dTal 5y ago
    You're alleging that Moxie Marlinspike deliberately compromised the security of WhatsApp on request?
  - tg180 5y ago
    I'm very wary of Whatsapp, but I don't think that's accurate. They have a LE portal, and in the FAQ they state what they are able to provide. [ https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/security-and-privacy/information-for-law-enforcement-authorities/?lang=en https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/security-and-privacy/inform... ] > In the ordinary course of providing our service, WhatsApp does not store messages once they are delivered or transaction logs of such delivered messages. Undelivered messages are deleted from our servers after 30 days. As stated in the WhatsApp Privacy Policy, we may collect, use, preserve, and share user information if we have a good-faith belief that it is reasonably necessary to (a) keep our users safe, (b) detect, investigate, and prevent illegal activity, (c) respond to legal process, or to government requests, (d) enforce our Terms and policies. This may include information about how some users interact with others on our service. We also offer end-to-end encryption for our services, which is always activated. End-to-end encryption means that messages are encrypted to protect against WhatsApp and third parties from reading them. Additional information about WhatsApp's security can be found here. So only metadata and everything that's not e2e. Certainly, if the demands were complied with, metadata alone would be sufficient to rebuild your communication network if the Taliban already know who you are and what are you talking about.
    - ptero 5y ago
      > So only metadata [can be shared] and everything that's not e2e. This is probably the best info anyway. What you speak about with a suspected enemy of the state is a lot less important for oppressive regimes than the fact that you (regularly) do. The content can be obtained from in person ... discussion. When a service doesn't care about presumption of innocence or torturing a few extra citizens, meta is probably all they need. Now I do not think Taliban itself would be able to pull it off, but if the ISI is involved it is another story.
  - skissane 5y ago
    The Taliban are still under US trade sanctions, and it would likely violate those sanctions were Facebook to cooperate with their requests. So, at least for now, your scenario is unlikely to happen. (Even with e2e encryption, they still have clear text metadata which oppressive governments may find useful - if they know you talked to a known dissident, they may assume you are one too, even if they can’t see what you said.)
  - zelphirkalt 5y ago
    Correction: Apparently I remembered wrongly and the issue with e2ee in WA is more complex. Apparently it is not directly about a simple third party key on the side of WA, but instead about key changes and automatic re-transmission of messages encrypted with replaced keys: https://www.enisa.europa.eu/publications/info-notes/about-the-alleged-whatsapp-backdoor https://www.enisa.europa.eu/publications/info-notes/about-th... I am sorry for any factually wrong implications my comment had. In effect however, if WA triggers a key change, WA might be able to create a third party key that matches the exchanged keys. This might be what other voices relate to: https://then24.com/2021/06/18/moxie-marlinspike-the-hacker-who-challenges-whatsapp/ https://then24.com/2021/06/18/moxie-marlinspike-the-hacker-w...: > “All messages on WhatsApp are encrypted, but Facebook can, voluntarily or at the request of a government, turn it off for certain users or certain areas. And we cannot know when it does, ”explains Jan Penfrat, political advisor to the activists network. As to the trustworthiness of those sources, I do not have information.
hansel_der 5y ago
indeed not a very favourable switch, but i guess the metadata from whatsapp is better protected than messenges posted to facebook.

hd4 5y ago

"ISI-backed" Is there somewhere credible I can learn more about the connection between the taliban and the ISI?

rocknor 5y ago
The connection between the Pakistani ISI and the Taliban is very well documented. https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/117472/DP%2018.pdf https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/117472/DP%2018.pdf https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghan2/Afghan0701-02.htm https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghan2/Afghan0701-02.htm https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/08/06/an-uneasy-limbo-for-us-pakistan-relations-amidst-the-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/08/06/a...
- notsureaboutpg 5y ago
  That Brookings Institute page did not say anything close to "the ISI backs the Taliban in X material, provable way". It just mentioned that despite Pakistan's official stance on the Taliban, they "may" see them as preferable to the (now former) Afghan government, which has stronger ties to India, despite the Taliban's ties (ties are never explained just asserted) to a militant group in Pakistan that Pakistan actually has fought and spent material effort defeating... I hope all the sources aren't as bunk as that one...