8 ms·

I love walking and there are many parks next to where I live. However I am never able to fully enjoy it or indulge in any longer thinking activities as most of

I love walking and there are many parks next to where I live. However I am never able to fully enjoy it or indulge in any longer thinking activities as most of the time I'll be interrupted by either elderly people asking me "to go back where I came from" or random ID checks by undercover police. This happened a lot (5x times) over the last year when I decide to go and walk in a park, once even during an online call with my team. I live in a medium sized city in Germany and come from North Africa / France and it might show a bit too much. As a mitigation I once seriously considered changing how I look by for example dressing more like a dad or walking the neighbors dog as an alibi for being "normal". Maybe it would have interested the old ladies too, who knows. For the time being I'll keep at walking on streets or inside the city as it's less strange to see foreigners there. Can't wait to have my private forest :')

marcusestes 5y ago
That must absolutely suck. I’m sorry you have to deal with that.
mateuszf 5y ago
A workaround which could work for regular people not bothering you would be using headphones.
switch007 5y ago
That was heartbreaking to read. I’m sorry. It really surprised me when I read Germany. Shame on those people and the politicians who allow police to harass you. Shame on them!
- vaylian 5y ago
  I was also very surprised when I read that it was in Germany. When it comes to police checks, it is important to know your rights: https://anwaltauskunft.de/magazin/gesellschaft/strafrecht-polizei/was-darf-die-polizei-bei-einer-personenkontrolle?full=1 https://anwaltauskunft.de/magazin/gesellschaft/strafrecht-po... The police is not allowed to discriminate against you just because you look foreign. Always demand that they tell you why you were stopped and that they show their badge. When it comes to racists, I personally would reply with irony and humor to make them look silly. But ignoring them can also be a viable strategy.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    Eastern Germany is very racist. I'm white and I repeatedly got "the looks" when I spoke Polish on a trip there. Not like Poland is better, but somehow people don't expect it in Germany.
    - atoav 5y ago
      I think it depends entirely on where you are in Germany, like everywhere you have more tolerant places and more intolerant places. Curiously the places with the least foreigners are the most xenophobic ones and vice versa.
      - jee1shi 5y ago
        > Curiously the places with the least foreigners are the most xenophobic ones and vice versa. That's actually the standard. It's easy to be xenophobic when someone has very little exposure to other cultures. Once they get exposed over a long period of time, people realise that they are just people too.
        LudwigNagasena 5y ago
        It’s also easy to be tolerant towards someone you don’t have to interact with. Once you get exposed to other cultures you realize that they are different.
        blowski 5y ago
        I guess the realisation we're talking about is going from thinking "they eat human babies" to "they drink different types of tea".
        galfarragem 5y ago
        I would say that is more like different cultures have different values: Different ways of treating women, different ways of treating animals, different ways of treating the ambient, different ways of looking at work, different ways of looking at state, different ways of looking at religion, different ways of looking at morals, different ways of looking at neighbors, different ways of looking at property, different ways of looking at mating (...) While elites from any culture may be open minded and flexible, the average individual is not. Elites may thrive in a multicultural society but the other incumbents don't. It's not surprising when they idolize any politician that respect them.
- vt85 5y ago
  Somehow I never see any such comments when white person get harassed, killed, raped by blacks, which happens thousands of times more often. White people avoid black gettoes. Actually black people avoid them, too, that’s why they come to white countries and start to complain. I wonder why this person didn’t stay in France? Maybe because it’s not really fun to live with others like him. And if you think germans are racists, visit Africa for a walk and compare. Besides, this original comment was 100% out of the topic, but it gets all the sympathy, while my comment being 100% true, will be downvoted. It’s disgusting beyond comprehension. It’s racism against whites that has never happened in history against any other group.
michaelgrafl 5y ago
That sucks. This kind of behavior should be monitored and have consequences till it stops.
quadrifoliate 5y ago
I thought I was hurt a lot by casually racist comments passed by coworkers in a small, relatively liberal town in the US Midwest. Then I read about your experiences and count myself lucky. I can say nothing other than, I hope things get better over time.
- senthil_rajasek 5y ago
  That is not a good comparison. It's not ok to pass casual racist comments. Casual racists comments and jokes fall into the micro-aggression category. Next time, I hope you build up the courage to tell your aggressors that you are not ok with racist comments.
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    > That is not a good comparison. It's not ok to pass casual racist comments. You are right. It's not, and I didn't mean to diminish my experience, only amplify how the OP's seemed much worse. > Next time, I hope you build up the courage to tell your aggressors that you are not ok with racist comments. I did, a few years ago! I also left that job and warn other minority groups vocally about the hostile environment there.
galfarragem 5y ago
I had exactly the same experience while travelling in Morocco. Random ID checks by police and people bothering me all the time. And I'm male.. Unfortunately comments like mine (and yours) don't make things better. Possibly they make things worse.
jjt-yn_t 5y ago
Sympathize. Fall 1979 two city co-workers hooliganized near me near-victimizing the public outside, and by fall 1980 the news I was a leader of 3 hooligans [ due to police incompetance, LAPD, 1975 , along with the legislative-quality vocabulary I write with, vs the public ] was popularized by ten diverse types of upright citizens who should have known better simply by asking me, to have local FD clandestingly harass MY SLEEPING HOURS 1980-2021 resulting in neurological problems that PREVENTS enjoying walking so much. All through no fault nor intent nor permission of mine. Worse, I was born way early and the imposed neuro problems are ATOP ones I incur from being isolated in the NICU. The past 48 hours, in fact, where without 'the public' I would have slept, say, 18 hours, I was 'allowed' only 4 or so. USA!
fridif 5y ago
Your problem is not that you are North African, but rather that you are living in an area controlled by a group of people who feel that this is a smart policy to have, which of course it is not. Come to the USA-- for all of our problems, you can at least walk in a park without encountering police.
Uberphallus 5y ago
It shouldn't have to be this way, but try wearing sport clothing and make it a light jog for extra health points. And by that I mean actual sports clothing, not the archetypical tight Adidas tracksuit that the average European troublemaker wears.
- C19is20 5y ago
  Oh, the irony....
  - Uberphallus 5y ago
    Where's the irony? The bias is there whether you like it or not. Never have I ever been harassed while wearing sports or hiking clothing, including accidental trespassing in countries where I barely spoke the language. Can't say the same about the outfit I mentioned, while doing nothing wrong. The fact that the Adidas tracksuit and the tiny bag are the closest thing to the official uniform of a drug dealer in much of Western Europe became apparent really quick.
    - quadrifoliate 5y ago
      > Where's the irony?...Never have I ever been harassed while wearing sports or hiking clothing, including accidental trespassing in countries where I barely spoke the language. Can't say the same about the outfit I mentioned, while doing nothing wrong. I think the OP is likely referring to the recent incident [1] in Georgia in the US where a black man was chased down and killed while he was jogging on the street in, guess what, T-shirt and shorts. I am aware that your recommendation is possibly about Germany. It's still ironic, and in my opinion your recommendation is ineffective. ---------------------------------------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ahmaud_Arbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
      - Uberphallus 5y ago
        Yeah, we're talking Europe in this thread though. Nobody ever gets shot while jogging, even less so by another civilian. Gun homicide and killed by cop deaths are orders of magnitude lower. But yeah I should have gauged my comment towards a mostly US-centric readership.
notanzaiiswear 5y ago
A friend of mine who is white also was checked by the police a lot (in Germany), simply because he had a certain jacket that was apparently associated with drug dealers or trouble makers (checks can include anal probes for hidden drugs, apparently). So maybe dressing for the occasion could work. Sorry for your ordeal. You'd think police would know you after the umpteenth check.
- gatlin 5y ago
  This advice is warm spirited and practical and I endorse taking actions to make oneself safer. But, also, it's disgusting that anyone should be harassed by police and feel unsafe walking where they live. That is a terrible status quo and the GP deserves better, full stop.
  - notanzaiiswear 5y ago
    On the one hand I agree, on the other hand it is a fact of nature that clothing displays a message. I think demands that clothes should not be significant are simply unrealistic. I think even if police suspect somebody, they should still treat them with respect, though. That is the real issue. You can not ask the police to never suspect anybody - that would make their jobs impossible and ridiculous.
    - gatlin 5y ago
      Really, I think we should sincerely and earnestly question what problem the police are presumed to solve. The most useful functions they serve in my area are to help direct traffic during construction, for which they absolutely do not need weapons. Otherwise the idea is that we will be safer if a handful of armed people drive around at their whim staring at pedestrians. They can't go back in time, nor do their methods demonstrate any hope of preventing anything. What do they do? edit: I should add, for anyone wondering what my positive contribution to this is, that the idea of a community taking measures to keep itself safe and peaceful is not a problem. But also that isn't what police do in theory or practice.
Archelaos 5y ago
I would like to encourage you to make your experience (semi-)public in your local community. In times of campaigning, talk to people at campaign booths. Tell the members of the city/local council of different parties about it. Go to the mayor's public office hours. And look for a group of people who want to something about it. There are also a large number of Germans who find the racist discrimination by the police scandalous and think that it is high time to do something about it. Best not individually, but collectively. Then attitudes can change, even in conservative circles. I come from a place that recently elected a mayor with a Turkish background who was supported by the conservative party (CDU). Something like this would hardly have been conceivable twenty years ago, but I hope that it will now become the norm.
cerebrum 5y ago
What's the name of the city?
mtnGoat 5y ago
Interesting post, when I worked in Vienna I had a guy who was from Nigeria on my team, his dad was a diplomat to the UN, I believe. One day he told me how long it took him to walk back and forth to work, but it didn’t make sense it took that long. He said because he was African the cops in certain districts stopped him every day to search him, claiming he was a drug dealer and basically just to harass him. So he took the extra time to avoid that district. What an eye opening conversation, to see that racism really does show it’s ugly little face everywhere, even in countries that aren’t really known for it. He was well dressed and worked in tech, mental gymnastics would be required to assume he was slanging drugs.
- sjapkee 5y ago
  It's not a racism, it's a reasonable precaution.
  - L3monPi3 5y ago
    Why reasonable? The guy was stopped just because being black
  - mtnGoat 5y ago
    nah, its was pretty clear racism. he was well dressed and had absolutely nothing suspicious about him(he even carried a diplomatic passport) the only thing different about him or I was his skin color and i walked through that same area many times, all hours of the day, wasted, and never once got stopped.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

marcusestes 5y ago

That must absolutely suck. I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

mateuszf 5y ago

A workaround which could work for regular people not bothering you would be using headphones.

switch007 5y ago

That was heartbreaking to read. I’m sorry. It really surprised me when I read Germany. Shame on those people and the politicians who allow police to harass you. Shame on them!

vaylian 5y ago
I was also very surprised when I read that it was in Germany. When it comes to police checks, it is important to know your rights: https://anwaltauskunft.de/magazin/gesellschaft/strafrecht-polizei/was-darf-die-polizei-bei-einer-personenkontrolle?full=1 https://anwaltauskunft.de/magazin/gesellschaft/strafrecht-po... The police is not allowed to discriminate against you just because you look foreign. Always demand that they tell you why you were stopped and that they show their badge. When it comes to racists, I personally would reply with irony and humor to make them look silly. But ignoring them can also be a viable strategy.
- ajuc 5y ago
  Eastern Germany is very racist. I'm white and I repeatedly got "the looks" when I spoke Polish on a trip there. Not like Poland is better, but somehow people don't expect it in Germany.
  - atoav 5y ago
    I think it depends entirely on where you are in Germany, like everywhere you have more tolerant places and more intolerant places. Curiously the places with the least foreigners are the most xenophobic ones and vice versa.
    - jee1shi 5y ago
      > Curiously the places with the least foreigners are the most xenophobic ones and vice versa. That's actually the standard. It's easy to be xenophobic when someone has very little exposure to other cultures. Once they get exposed over a long period of time, people realise that they are just people too.
      - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
        It’s also easy to be tolerant towards someone you don’t have to interact with. Once you get exposed to other cultures you realize that they are different.
        blowski 5y ago
        I guess the realisation we're talking about is going from thinking "they eat human babies" to "they drink different types of tea".
        galfarragem 5y ago
        I would say that is more like different cultures have different values: Different ways of treating women, different ways of treating animals, different ways of treating the ambient, different ways of looking at work, different ways of looking at state, different ways of looking at religion, different ways of looking at morals, different ways of looking at neighbors, different ways of looking at property, different ways of looking at mating (...) While elites from any culture may be open minded and flexible, the average individual is not. Elites may thrive in a multicultural society but the other incumbents don't. It's not surprising when they idolize any politician that respect them.
vt85 5y ago
Somehow I never see any such comments when white person get harassed, killed, raped by blacks, which happens thousands of times more often. White people avoid black gettoes. Actually black people avoid them, too, that’s why they come to white countries and start to complain. I wonder why this person didn’t stay in France? Maybe because it’s not really fun to live with others like him. And if you think germans are racists, visit Africa for a walk and compare. Besides, this original comment was 100% out of the topic, but it gets all the sympathy, while my comment being 100% true, will be downvoted. It’s disgusting beyond comprehension. It’s racism against whites that has never happened in history against any other group.

michaelgrafl 5y ago

That sucks. This kind of behavior should be monitored and have consequences till it stops.

quadrifoliate 5y ago

I thought I was hurt a lot by casually racist comments passed by coworkers in a small, relatively liberal town in the US Midwest. Then I read about your experiences and count myself lucky. I can say nothing other than, I hope things get better over time.

senthil_rajasek 5y ago
That is not a good comparison. It's not ok to pass casual racist comments. Casual racists comments and jokes fall into the micro-aggression category. Next time, I hope you build up the courage to tell your aggressors that you are not ok with racist comments.
- quadrifoliate 5y ago
  > That is not a good comparison. It's not ok to pass casual racist comments. You are right. It's not, and I didn't mean to diminish my experience, only amplify how the OP's seemed much worse. > Next time, I hope you build up the courage to tell your aggressors that you are not ok with racist comments. I did, a few years ago! I also left that job and warn other minority groups vocally about the hostile environment there.

galfarragem 5y ago

I had exactly the same experience while travelling in Morocco. Random ID checks by police and people bothering me all the time. And I'm male.. Unfortunately comments like mine (and yours) don't make things better. Possibly they make things worse.

jjt-yn_t 5y ago

Sympathize. Fall 1979 two city co-workers hooliganized near me near-victimizing the public outside, and by fall 1980 the news I was a leader of 3 hooligans [ due to police incompetance, LAPD, 1975 , along with the legislative-quality vocabulary I write with, vs the public ] was popularized by ten diverse types of upright citizens who should have known better simply by asking me, to have local FD clandestingly harass MY SLEEPING HOURS 1980-2021 resulting in neurological problems that PREVENTS enjoying walking so much. All through no fault nor intent nor permission of mine. Worse, I was born way early and the imposed neuro problems are ATOP ones I incur from being isolated in the NICU. The past 48 hours, in fact, where without 'the public' I would have slept, say, 18 hours, I was 'allowed' only 4 or so. USA!

fridif 5y ago

Your problem is not that you are North African, but rather that you are living in an area controlled by a group of people who feel that this is a smart policy to have, which of course it is not. Come to the USA-- for all of our problems, you can at least walk in a park without encountering police.

Uberphallus 5y ago

It shouldn't have to be this way, but try wearing sport clothing and make it a light jog for extra health points. And by that I mean actual sports clothing, not the archetypical tight Adidas tracksuit that the average European troublemaker wears.

C19is20 5y ago
Oh, the irony....
- Uberphallus 5y ago
  Where's the irony? The bias is there whether you like it or not. Never have I ever been harassed while wearing sports or hiking clothing, including accidental trespassing in countries where I barely spoke the language. Can't say the same about the outfit I mentioned, while doing nothing wrong. The fact that the Adidas tracksuit and the tiny bag are the closest thing to the official uniform of a drug dealer in much of Western Europe became apparent really quick.
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    > Where's the irony?...Never have I ever been harassed while wearing sports or hiking clothing, including accidental trespassing in countries where I barely spoke the language. Can't say the same about the outfit I mentioned, while doing nothing wrong. I think the OP is likely referring to the recent incident [1] in Georgia in the US where a black man was chased down and killed while he was jogging on the street in, guess what, T-shirt and shorts. I am aware that your recommendation is possibly about Germany. It's still ironic, and in my opinion your recommendation is ineffective. ---------------------------------------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ahmaud_Arbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
    - Uberphallus 5y ago
      Yeah, we're talking Europe in this thread though. Nobody ever gets shot while jogging, even less so by another civilian. Gun homicide and killed by cop deaths are orders of magnitude lower. But yeah I should have gauged my comment towards a mostly US-centric readership.

notanzaiiswear 5y ago

A friend of mine who is white also was checked by the police a lot (in Germany), simply because he had a certain jacket that was apparently associated with drug dealers or trouble makers (checks can include anal probes for hidden drugs, apparently). So maybe dressing for the occasion could work. Sorry for your ordeal. You'd think police would know you after the umpteenth check.

gatlin 5y ago
This advice is warm spirited and practical and I endorse taking actions to make oneself safer. But, also, it's disgusting that anyone should be harassed by police and feel unsafe walking where they live. That is a terrible status quo and the GP deserves better, full stop.
- notanzaiiswear 5y ago
  On the one hand I agree, on the other hand it is a fact of nature that clothing displays a message. I think demands that clothes should not be significant are simply unrealistic. I think even if police suspect somebody, they should still treat them with respect, though. That is the real issue. You can not ask the police to never suspect anybody - that would make their jobs impossible and ridiculous.
  - gatlin 5y ago
    Really, I think we should sincerely and earnestly question what problem the police are presumed to solve. The most useful functions they serve in my area are to help direct traffic during construction, for which they absolutely do not need weapons. Otherwise the idea is that we will be safer if a handful of armed people drive around at their whim staring at pedestrians. They can't go back in time, nor do their methods demonstrate any hope of preventing anything. What do they do? edit: I should add, for anyone wondering what my positive contribution to this is, that the idea of a community taking measures to keep itself safe and peaceful is not a problem. But also that isn't what police do in theory or practice.

Archelaos 5y ago

I would like to encourage you to make your experience (semi-)public in your local community. In times of campaigning, talk to people at campaign booths. Tell the members of the city/local council of different parties about it. Go to the mayor's public office hours. And look for a group of people who want to something about it. There are also a large number of Germans who find the racist discrimination by the police scandalous and think that it is high time to do something about it. Best not individually, but collectively. Then attitudes can change, even in conservative circles. I come from a place that recently elected a mayor with a Turkish background who was supported by the conservative party (CDU). Something like this would hardly have been conceivable twenty years ago, but I hope that it will now become the norm.

cerebrum 5y ago

What's the name of the city?

mtnGoat 5y ago

Interesting post, when I worked in Vienna I had a guy who was from Nigeria on my team, his dad was a diplomat to the UN, I believe. One day he told me how long it took him to walk back and forth to work, but it didn’t make sense it took that long. He said because he was African the cops in certain districts stopped him every day to search him, claiming he was a drug dealer and basically just to harass him. So he took the extra time to avoid that district. What an eye opening conversation, to see that racism really does show it’s ugly little face everywhere, even in countries that aren’t really known for it. He was well dressed and worked in tech, mental gymnastics would be required to assume he was slanging drugs.

sjapkee 5y ago
It's not a racism, it's a reasonable precaution.
- L3monPi3 5y ago
  Why reasonable? The guy was stopped just because being black
- mtnGoat 5y ago
  nah, its was pretty clear racism. he was well dressed and had absolutely nothing suspicious about him(he even carried a diplomatic passport) the only thing different about him or I was his skin color and i walked through that same area many times, all hours of the day, wasted, and never once got stopped.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]