6 ms·

My 2 cents: 1) I really like the content - systems thinking is definitely a good tool to have, as I find it to more accurately help me understand the world arou

by SmooL 5y ago

My 2 cents: 1) I really like the content - systems thinking is definitely a good tool to have, as I find it to more accurately help me understand the world around me. The post goes on to tie it into various emergent layers and such. 2) Not a huge fan of the format. Honestly it's mostly just a personal preference; I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the whole student-teacher discussion, but to me it just comes off as self-aggrandizing. I prefer straightforward explanations, not a meandering story, but that might just be my technical side

sam0x17 5y ago
It's essentially a Socratic dialogue. Personally I find it really refreshing to see something like this outside of Philosophy.
- vintermann 5y ago
  Socratic dialogue isn't actual dialogue. It can easily come off as condescending to explain something in a dialogue with yourself. It can easily BE condescending (tvtropes, no link: "The Watson"). This site starts off on a long winded "Socratic" lecture (and an allegory to boot) without even telling us who the author is or what he aims to convince us, in short why we should care. And he seems to have been submitting his own writings to hacker news a lot. I'm pretty sure I saw this exact link a few days ago, in fact. Causal statistics lecturer and old time blogger Cosma Shalizi used to start off all his blog posts with an "attention conservation notice" summary. This author is an example of the opposite, someone who does not respect very much that the reader's attention is precious to them too.
  - joelwilliamson 5y ago
    In the hands of a master like Plato, this style is heuristic; that is, it allows the reader, indeed leads him, to discover things for himself. [...] "A master like Plato," we said - but there is no one "like" Plato. Other philosophers have attempted dialogues - for example, Cicero and Berkeley - but with little success. Their dialogues are flat, dull, almost unreadable. It is a measure of the greatness of Plato that he was able to write philosophical dialogues that, for wit, charm, and profundity are the equal of any books ever produced by anyone, on any subject. Yet it may be a sign of the inappropriateness of this style of philosophizing that no one except Plato has ever been able to handle it effectively. Mortimer Adler
hack-news 5y ago
"Not a huge fan of the format." That's charitable! The format is hokey to begin with and then the actual dialogue makes my blood boil.
rikroots 5y ago
When I was doing my Open University computing degree one of the modules was on systems thinking. During the course I got told (by tutors) that I have a tendency to think more systematically than most people. So I should've been able to pass the module easily? Nope. That was the only module I abandoned; I got so angry with the way it was being taught, the assumptions and arrogance displayed by the tutors (very much "us against the reductionist world"), that I lost all interest in completing it. At that time, the module was a required component of the computing degree. By abandoning it, I had to give up the single-subject degree. Instead I opted to take some creative writing modules and ended up with an OU open degree. Turns out I was much happier writing and creating stuff than drawing clouds and pipes and stuff.

by SmooL 5y ago

sam0x17 5y ago

It's essentially a Socratic dialogue. Personally I find it really refreshing to see something like this outside of Philosophy.

vintermann 5y ago
Socratic dialogue isn't actual dialogue. It can easily come off as condescending to explain something in a dialogue with yourself. It can easily BE condescending (tvtropes, no link: "The Watson"). This site starts off on a long winded "Socratic" lecture (and an allegory to boot) without even telling us who the author is or what he aims to convince us, in short why we should care. And he seems to have been submitting his own writings to hacker news a lot. I'm pretty sure I saw this exact link a few days ago, in fact. Causal statistics lecturer and old time blogger Cosma Shalizi used to start off all his blog posts with an "attention conservation notice" summary. This author is an example of the opposite, someone who does not respect very much that the reader's attention is precious to them too.
- joelwilliamson 5y ago
  In the hands of a master like Plato, this style is heuristic; that is, it allows the reader, indeed leads him, to discover things for himself. [...] "A master like Plato," we said - but there is no one "like" Plato. Other philosophers have attempted dialogues - for example, Cicero and Berkeley - but with little success. Their dialogues are flat, dull, almost unreadable. It is a measure of the greatness of Plato that he was able to write philosophical dialogues that, for wit, charm, and profundity are the equal of any books ever produced by anyone, on any subject. Yet it may be a sign of the inappropriateness of this style of philosophizing that no one except Plato has ever been able to handle it effectively. Mortimer Adler

hack-news 5y ago

"Not a huge fan of the format." That's charitable! The format is hokey to begin with and then the actual dialogue makes my blood boil.

rikroots 5y ago

When I was doing my Open University computing degree one of the modules was on systems thinking. During the course I got told (by tutors) that I have a tendency to think more systematically than most people. So I should've been able to pass the module easily? Nope. That was the only module I abandoned; I got so angry with the way it was being taught, the assumptions and arrogance displayed by the tutors (very much "us against the reductionist world"), that I lost all interest in completing it. At that time, the module was a required component of the computing degree. By abandoning it, I had to give up the single-subject degree. Instead I opted to take some creative writing modules and ended up with an OU open degree. Turns out I was much happier writing and creating stuff than drawing clouds and pipes and stuff.