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A series of meetings followed, in which Gass "negotiated with major players such as Ryobi, Delta, Black & Decker, Emerson, and Craftsman" in an attempt to licen

A series of meetings followed, in which Gass "negotiated with major players such as Ryobi, Delta, Black & Decker, Emerson, and Craftsman" in an attempt to license his invention; he followed those negotiations with a February 2001 presentation to the Defense Research Industry, a trade group for attorneys representing the power-tool industry.[7] That presentation immediately preceded one from Dan Lanier, Black & Decker's national coordinating counsel; Lanier's presentation gave Gass the impression he was unlikely to succeed in convincing major power tool manufacturers to license SawStop technology.[7] The license fee was going to be around 3% of wholesale (so about $3 on a $100 wholesale saw that goes for $200 retail). I think he came very close to licensing to ryobi? Anyways, if you think $3 for potentially incredibly QOL saving tech is too much for an inventor that actually invented something (and tested on his own finger) then I don't know what to tell you. That said, once someone's parents (if you run a woodshop in a school) or employee sues you - you may start valuing this invention a bit more.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
WalterBright 5y ago
On the other hand (!), maybe the onus for the lost fingers is on SawStop for demanding those licensing fees.
- Danieru 5y ago
  Congratulations! You are today's 10,000th person to learn of: <Perverse Incentives>
  - snet0 5y ago
    How is it an example of a perverse incentive? If we don't reward inventors who make genuinely useful things, there's no incentive.
    - Danieru 5y ago
      I was replying to a comment which suggested the investor should be punished for not offering their invention for free. The poster wanted to punish inventors for inventing. If that isn't a perverse incentive I don't know what is.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        > The poster wanted to punish inventors for inventing. Please try reading what I wrote again.
        Danieru 5y ago
        > On the other hand (!), maybe the onus for the lost fingers is on SawStop for demanding those licensing fees. Done. Do you disagree that your writing says "the onus for lost finger is on SawStop"? Your writing seems very clear to me. I do not know why you are confused.
        WalterBright 5y ago
        I said "maybe", as in who is the unfair party here? Nowhere did I say anyone should be punished.
    - hellbannedguy 5y ago
      To certain people.
- GuB-42 5y ago
  Safety features are not free and no one should expect them to be. If some safety feature is judged too important not to have, as it is common in cars, the government steps in and makes it mandatory, but it doesn't mean there are no more licensing fees. At best, the licensing fees are limited to a fair price.
  - michaelcampbell 5y ago
    Like the polio vaccine.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > Safety features are not free and no one should expect them to be. There's a difference between the cost to provide something and the license fee. Note the Moderna licensed its covid patents for $0. > a fair price What's a fair price? What is the rule that says one party is greedy and the other is reasonable?
    - ianlevesque 5y ago
      There's a whole precedent for this with FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory) licensing. It's really common for standards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminat...
      - infogulch 5y ago
        All patents (really, all licensable IP) should be subject to this.
    - foepys 5y ago
      Did anybody use Moderna's patents? As far as I know nobody did because Moderna licensed them for a limited time in which nobody would be able to ramp up a completely new production line. Almost always those 0 cost licensing agreements are just PR stunts.
    - robertlagrant 5y ago
- manigandham 5y ago
  As opposed to... giving the tech away for free? What alternative are you proposing is better?
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I give away tech for free that I work full time on every day. (The D programming language). So does everyone else who works on it. It's how Open Source works.
    - manigandham 5y ago
      Good for you. This isn't open-source though. It's capital intensive product development and people want to be paid for their efforts. Are you seriously suggesting that they should just work for free?
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        Not at all. They're free to manufacture and sell sawstop saws. They can also supply the necessary hardware to other saw makers, saving them the trouble of developing it themselves. It'd be likely cheaper to just buy the hardware than reverse-engineer it.
erik_seaberg 5y ago
It's good that the license was only $3, but the end user also has to buy at least one disposable $80 cartridge (probably more, apparently false alarms happen) for a problem that can be solved with a push stick.
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  Good point. You can send in your activated cartridge to sawstop - if it was skin activated then they may replace it for free. If you are concerned about a trip you can touch blade to piece with saw off and it'll tell you if would have tripped. Or do a first cut with system off. Or if you have a wet piece turn it off. That said if you have a nail or something in piece there are situations that could trip it for sure.
  - kens 5y ago
    I was at a shop that had a "wall of shame" with sawstop cartridges that had tripped when people tried to saw wet wood, metallized plastic, and other conductive materials.
    - jjav 5y ago
      The detection can be disabled for the case of cutting conductive materials.
      - slownews45 5y ago
        It can also be used to sense if the wood is too wet - go to bypass, then do a cut in wettest part and you'll get an indication.
- AmVess 5y ago
  Push sticks have been turned into formidable projectiles, even by the most experienced and careful of user.
hamburgerwah 5y ago
$3 was at least 100, if not 1000 times more than these manufacturers would have ever been willing to pay in license. That was just the license, the technology itself added significant cost, weight and complexity. It's no surprise that sawstop can make a nice saw for 4 to 17x the price of competitors.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

WalterBright 5y ago

On the other hand (!), maybe the onus for the lost fingers is on SawStop for demanding those licensing fees.

Danieru 5y ago
Congratulations! You are today's 10,000th person to learn of: <Perverse Incentives>
- snet0 5y ago
  How is it an example of a perverse incentive? If we don't reward inventors who make genuinely useful things, there's no incentive.
  - Danieru 5y ago
    I was replying to a comment which suggested the investor should be punished for not offering their invention for free. The poster wanted to punish inventors for inventing. If that isn't a perverse incentive I don't know what is.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      > The poster wanted to punish inventors for inventing. Please try reading what I wrote again.
      - Danieru 5y ago
        > On the other hand (!), maybe the onus for the lost fingers is on SawStop for demanding those licensing fees. Done. Do you disagree that your writing says "the onus for lost finger is on SawStop"? Your writing seems very clear to me. I do not know why you are confused.
        WalterBright 5y ago
        I said "maybe", as in who is the unfair party here? Nowhere did I say anyone should be punished.
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    To certain people.
GuB-42 5y ago
Safety features are not free and no one should expect them to be. If some safety feature is judged too important not to have, as it is common in cars, the government steps in and makes it mandatory, but it doesn't mean there are no more licensing fees. At best, the licensing fees are limited to a fair price.
- michaelcampbell 5y ago
  Like the polio vaccine.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > Safety features are not free and no one should expect them to be. There's a difference between the cost to provide something and the license fee. Note the Moderna licensed its covid patents for $0. > a fair price What's a fair price? What is the rule that says one party is greedy and the other is reasonable?
  - ianlevesque 5y ago
    There's a whole precedent for this with FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory) licensing. It's really common for standards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminat...
    - infogulch 5y ago
      All patents (really, all licensable IP) should be subject to this.
  - foepys 5y ago
    Did anybody use Moderna's patents? As far as I know nobody did because Moderna licensed them for a limited time in which nobody would be able to ramp up a completely new production line. Almost always those 0 cost licensing agreements are just PR stunts.
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
manigandham 5y ago
As opposed to... giving the tech away for free? What alternative are you proposing is better?
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I give away tech for free that I work full time on every day. (The D programming language). So does everyone else who works on it. It's how Open Source works.
  - manigandham 5y ago
    Good for you. This isn't open-source though. It's capital intensive product development and people want to be paid for their efforts. Are you seriously suggesting that they should just work for free?
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      Not at all. They're free to manufacture and sell sawstop saws. They can also supply the necessary hardware to other saw makers, saving them the trouble of developing it themselves. It'd be likely cheaper to just buy the hardware than reverse-engineer it.

erik_seaberg 5y ago

It's good that the license was only $3, but the end user also has to buy at least one disposable $80 cartridge (probably more, apparently false alarms happen) for a problem that can be solved with a push stick.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Good point. You can send in your activated cartridge to sawstop - if it was skin activated then they may replace it for free. If you are concerned about a trip you can touch blade to piece with saw off and it'll tell you if would have tripped. Or do a first cut with system off. Or if you have a wet piece turn it off. That said if you have a nail or something in piece there are situations that could trip it for sure.
- kens 5y ago
  I was at a shop that had a "wall of shame" with sawstop cartridges that had tripped when people tried to saw wet wood, metallized plastic, and other conductive materials.
  - jjav 5y ago
    The detection can be disabled for the case of cutting conductive materials.
    - slownews45 5y ago
      It can also be used to sense if the wood is too wet - go to bypass, then do a cut in wettest part and you'll get an indication.
AmVess 5y ago
Push sticks have been turned into formidable projectiles, even by the most experienced and careful of user.

hamburgerwah 5y ago

$3 was at least 100, if not 1000 times more than these manufacturers would have ever been willing to pay in license. That was just the license, the technology itself added significant cost, weight and complexity. It's no surprise that sawstop can make a nice saw for 4 to 17x the price of competitors.