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Does it even matter when your location is also available from the mobile carriers? Best solution is if you value privacy is not to carry a phone on you.

by adrr 5y ago

noodlenotes 5y ago
Cell tower data is much less granular than GPS data collected by apps. Google knows that you were on the same block where a crime was committed, but mobile carriers only know you were in the city or neighborhood.
- adrr 5y ago
  Mobile carrier location data is near GPS level detail according to the SCOTUS case on it. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-402_h315.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-402_h315.pdf
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bhassel 5y ago
    A few quotes from that document (from 2018): Each time a phone connects to a cell site, it generates a time-stamped record known as cell-site location information (CSLI). Wireless carriers collect and store this information for their own business purposes. [...] With just the click of a button, the Government can access each carrier’s deep repository of historical location information at practically no expense. [...] With access to CSLI, the Government can now travel back in time to retrace a person’s whereabouts, subject only to the retention polices of the wireless carriers, which currently maintain records for up to five years. Critically, because location information is continually logged for all of the 400 million devices in the United States — not just those belonging to persons who might happen to come under investigation — this newfound tracking capacity runs against everyone. [...] The Government and JUSTICE KENNEDY contend, however, that the collection of CSLI should be permitted because the data is less precise than GPS information. [...] The location records [...] placed [Carpenter] within a wedge-shaped sector ranging from one-eighth to four square miles. [...] While the records in this case reflect the state of technology at the start of the decade, the accuracy of CSLI is rapidly approaching GPS-level precision. As the number of cell sites has proliferated, the geographic area covered by each cell sector has shrunk, particularly in urban areas. In addition, with new technology measuring the time and angle of signals hitting their towers, wireless carriers already have the capability to pinpoint a phone’s location within 50 meters.
- nl 5y ago
  This understates the accuracy. Cell tower data includes signal strength to multiple towers. The FTC quotes an accuracy of 3/4 sq mile using 3 cell towers, with more accuracy possible in urban areas with more towers: https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/Apps%20Wrkshp%202015/911_Help_SMS_WhitePaper0515.pdf https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/Apps%20Wrkshp%202015/911... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221568410_Accuracy_Characterization_of_Cell_Tower_Localization https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221568410_Accuracy_... shows a median error of 55m is possible with real-world data from LA.
jrochkind1 5y ago
Well, the article suggests that law enforcement -- mainly state and local -- is getting it from Google via "geofencing" warrants, "give me all the people who were in this area at this time". Getting it from google and not mobile carriers. It would probably be a lot harder for them to get it from mobile carriers. There are multiple mobile carriers. They may not have the systems from which they could easily give law enforcement that data (Google has them, and uses the to respond). Making things harder for law enforcement matters. But yes, of course you are more secure without your phone on you. (Then let's talk about the universal camera surveillance we have, and facial recognition... it is hard to be invisible in 2021, but that does not mean all venues are equal, it matters when you make it as easy as it is with a geofence warrant to Google).
- Accujack 5y ago
  >It would probably be a lot harder for them to get it from mobile carriers. There are multiple mobile carriers. They may not have the systems from which they could easily give law enforcement that data (Google has them, and uses the to respond). Rather, there are laws governing what data police may request under what circumstances from mobile carriers. They can either follow the rules and do all the paperwork to get data from the phone companies or they can request location data from Google, which is just as good for most purposes and much easier to obtain.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    Huh, why don't these laws apply to Google? I'm interested in learning more, can you be more specific about what laws covering what data police may request apply to mobile carriers but not google, so I can learn more?
    - thephyber 5y ago
      I think you will find, if you deep dive, that this is less about statutes passed by Congress and more about case law/jurisprudence derived from case rulings. Also important is that these are not two giant melting pots silos of data. Your mobile phone provider has multiple types of data that require differing burden of proof for LEOs to access. Some require an actual warrant, whereas others may be obtained simply by asking or purchasing (due to the Third Party Doctrine). Similarly, Google has massive troves of different kinds of data. Your Search Queries may not have the same level of protection as access to your Google Maps location data which may differ from WiFi wardriving, which may differ from Google Phone account data, etc. Historically, land lines had very stringent protections in US law. A “Tap and Trace” warrant had specific burden of proof and requirements for LEOs who listened in (there were fantastic scenes in the Sopranos and The Wire that showed criminals frustrating police while being spied on), but I believe mobile phone call content is governed by different statutes.

Does it even matter when your location is also available from the mobile carriers? Best solution is if you value privacy is not to carry a phone on you.

by adrr 5y ago

Does it even matter when your location is also available from the mobile carriers? Best solution is if you value privacy is not to carry a phone on you.

noodlenotes 5y ago

Cell tower data is much less granular than GPS data collected by apps. Google knows that you were on the same block where a crime was committed, but mobile carriers only know you were in the city or neighborhood.

adrr 5y ago
Mobile carrier location data is near GPS level detail according to the SCOTUS case on it. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-402_h315.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-402_h315.pdf
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bhassel 5y ago
  A few quotes from that document (from 2018): Each time a phone connects to a cell site, it generates a time-stamped record known as cell-site location information (CSLI). Wireless carriers collect and store this information for their own business purposes. [...] With just the click of a button, the Government can access each carrier’s deep repository of historical location information at practically no expense. [...] With access to CSLI, the Government can now travel back in time to retrace a person’s whereabouts, subject only to the retention polices of the wireless carriers, which currently maintain records for up to five years. Critically, because location information is continually logged for all of the 400 million devices in the United States — not just those belonging to persons who might happen to come under investigation — this newfound tracking capacity runs against everyone. [...] The Government and JUSTICE KENNEDY contend, however, that the collection of CSLI should be permitted because the data is less precise than GPS information. [...] The location records [...] placed [Carpenter] within a wedge-shaped sector ranging from one-eighth to four square miles. [...] While the records in this case reflect the state of technology at the start of the decade, the accuracy of CSLI is rapidly approaching GPS-level precision. As the number of cell sites has proliferated, the geographic area covered by each cell sector has shrunk, particularly in urban areas. In addition, with new technology measuring the time and angle of signals hitting their towers, wireless carriers already have the capability to pinpoint a phone’s location within 50 meters.
nl 5y ago
This understates the accuracy. Cell tower data includes signal strength to multiple towers. The FTC quotes an accuracy of 3/4 sq mile using 3 cell towers, with more accuracy possible in urban areas with more towers: https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/Apps%20Wrkshp%202015/911_Help_SMS_WhitePaper0515.pdf https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/Apps%20Wrkshp%202015/911... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221568410_Accuracy_Characterization_of_Cell_Tower_Localization https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221568410_Accuracy_... shows a median error of 55m is possible with real-world data from LA.

jrochkind1 5y ago

Well, the article suggests that law enforcement -- mainly state and local -- is getting it from Google via "geofencing" warrants, "give me all the people who were in this area at this time". Getting it from google and not mobile carriers. It would probably be a lot harder for them to get it from mobile carriers. There are multiple mobile carriers. They may not have the systems from which they could easily give law enforcement that data (Google has them, and uses the to respond). Making things harder for law enforcement matters. But yes, of course you are more secure without your phone on you. (Then let's talk about the universal camera surveillance we have, and facial recognition... it is hard to be invisible in 2021, but that does not mean all venues are equal, it matters when you make it as easy as it is with a geofence warrant to Google).

Accujack 5y ago
>It would probably be a lot harder for them to get it from mobile carriers. There are multiple mobile carriers. They may not have the systems from which they could easily give law enforcement that data (Google has them, and uses the to respond). Rather, there are laws governing what data police may request under what circumstances from mobile carriers. They can either follow the rules and do all the paperwork to get data from the phone companies or they can request location data from Google, which is just as good for most purposes and much easier to obtain.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  Huh, why don't these laws apply to Google? I'm interested in learning more, can you be more specific about what laws covering what data police may request apply to mobile carriers but not google, so I can learn more?
  - thephyber 5y ago
    I think you will find, if you deep dive, that this is less about statutes passed by Congress and more about case law/jurisprudence derived from case rulings. Also important is that these are not two giant melting pots silos of data. Your mobile phone provider has multiple types of data that require differing burden of proof for LEOs to access. Some require an actual warrant, whereas others may be obtained simply by asking or purchasing (due to the Third Party Doctrine). Similarly, Google has massive troves of different kinds of data. Your Search Queries may not have the same level of protection as access to your Google Maps location data which may differ from WiFi wardriving, which may differ from Google Phone account data, etc. Historically, land lines had very stringent protections in US law. A “Tap and Trace” warrant had specific burden of proof and requirements for LEOs who listened in (there were fantastic scenes in the Sopranos and The Wire that showed criminals frustrating police while being spied on), but I believe mobile phone call content is governed by different statutes.