6 ms·

I think ebike is a misnomer. These things are really e-(motor)cycles. This confusion is making it really hard for me to search for what I need. All I want is

by treis 5y ago

I think ebike is a misnomer. These things are really e-(motor)cycles. This confusion is making it really hard for me to search for what I need. All I want is an assist to take the edge off of hills. Don't need to cruise at 30mph for an hour.

germinalphrase 5y ago
Search for a 750 watt motor. That is the upper limit in many countries for a standard commercial ebike. Bafang and Tongsheng both produce popular motors.
- treis 5y ago
  Google says those cruise at ~30mph.
  - 1-more 5y ago
    You can get really nerdy and calculate this the way triathletes/time trialists do with a tool like this[0]. I plugged in what I think my numbers are for mass and my relaxed ride CdA and on my road bike and you're on the money. [0] http://www.aeroweenie.com/calc.html http://www.aeroweenie.com/calc.html
    - morganw 5y ago
      That's really helpful. It predicts 534 Watts to get me (110kg, 0.4 CdA) to the 45kph limit for Class 3 California bikes. The Grin Technologies motor simulator https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html predicts (the "Load Line") 837 Watts for "MTB upright", 648W for "MTB, Tuck" and 570W for "Road, Tuck". I do find that in an upright position it takes 100-200W of human power in addition to 750W power measured at the input to the motor controller. The controller's pretty efficient, but the motor (GMAC) is only 85% max, so there's maybe 570W at the axle. The US CPSC and California laws aren't clear whether the 750W/1 horsepower limit is power in or power out, but power in is what shows on the display, so I limit it to that. Also, even a mild grade will cause the motor to approach the 70 deg C limit I chose after 1 minute. I live in the flattish Santa Clara County, but I'd definitely want a mid-drive if I lived in a hilly area. A 250 or 350W Riese & Müller Delite https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite/ https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite/ I test rode needed a lot of human power to hit the 45 kph max, but it climbed hills in Larkspur like a goat. 750W will have no problem getting a recumbent bike to 30MPH, but don't count on it for an upright.
    - morganw 5y ago
      Oh, and to see what 700W from a human looks like, an Olympic track cyclist toasts a piece of bread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4O5voOCqAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4O5voOCqAQ
      - 1-more 5y ago
        Yep. Bradley Wiggins's 2015 velodrome hour world record was 440W (since eclipsed in distance but not power). This puts into perspective how cheap power is in the industrial age. His hour record was the equivalent power of 35 grams of gasoline. Or it's about 5 not great power tool batteries (eyeballing eBay listings). It's gonna be tough when we have a world built for nearly free energy and we don't have the free energy anymore.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    I had guy in lycra overtake me at that speed (slight downhill). He smiled and took off.
  - loeg 5y ago
    It's plausible. Pro riders put out 400-500W to do ~30 mph, but are likely in a more aerodynamic position than most ebike riders (or drafting).
    - shiftpgdn 5y ago
      Pro riders can do 30mph at around 270-300W on a flat surface as they’re typically very skinny. I need about 350-450W to do 30mph as an 88kg/1.88M male.
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    Hm. You’re right. Bad suggestion. Overkill.
bootlooped 5y ago
I think the phrase e-bike generally refers to a bicycle, with operable pedals, that also has an electric motor to assist when peddling, and possibly a throttle. When I think electric motorcycle, I think of something that does not have pedals at all.
- analog31 5y ago
  One issue is that the pedals could be practically cosmetic, if the power added by the motor is such that pedaling is unnecessary. This was true with some early mopeds too -- the pedals were pretty much good for starting the motor and nothing else. I'm seeing more of this as e-bikes evolve towards smaller diameter, wider tires and heavier frames. The US "class" system seems useful, inasmuch as it more or less specifies the capability of the bike with and without pedaling. I'm all for adding a new transportation / recreation option, and have adopted a wait-and-see attitude for how the technology and its use will evolve. So far, e-bikes have not affected my use of a conventional bike, except for people asking me when I'm going to get an e-bike.
  - mastax 5y ago
    Huh, I've never seen a moped that you could pedal like a bike even in a photo. Apparently the "ped" is from "pedal," not "pedestrian." I wonder if eBikes will follow the same path? I don't think they will, a gas motor is already disruptive enough that you may as well become a motorcycle.
    - throwaway_se099 5y ago
      I've never seen a moped that you could pedal like a bike even in a photo. As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puch_Maxi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puch_Maxi
    - analog31 5y ago
      I wonder if electric starters killed the pedals. I grew up in an area that was pretty heavily car-centric, so we didn't see a lot of alternatives. The Schwinn store got the Solex Horse, which had pedals, but they were really only useful for starting as there was one gear with a low ratio. The only next thing we saw was the Honda Spree, which as I recall had an electric starter and whatever qualified as an "automatic transmission," and I think that class of scooter is still more or less the standard today. It seemed like a big step forward in terms of ease of use.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
EPAC or Pedelec is a term used for bikes that meet the EU regulations, assist should cut off beyond 25kph (15.5mph) and you only get power when you cycle. I think there's a motor wattage maximum too so that might help your search.
- treis 5y ago
  Those seem to be the magic words to find what I'm looking for, thanks!
- kylegordon 5y ago
  yup, and 250W continuous And the great bit is that if you are ignorant of these laws and get caught on an electric bike doing higher speeds then you get a penalty as if you are riding a motorbike without insurance or a license - aka penalty points on your regular driving license, plus all the other court shenanigans.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  I'm all in for sensible regulation, but don't structure in a way that it's impossible to buy mid-speed ebike because no one knows how to certify or suddenly it costs 4x more for no apparent reason.
  - aaronblohowiak 5y ago
    We call it a class 1 ebike and they are easy to buy in USA.
analog31 5y ago
This could be a market problem, like trying to buy a small car these days. People are demanding bigger, faster, more range. I know several people with e-bikes, and most of them are on their second or third bike in pursuit of more speed and power, fatter tires, shocks, etc. A used bike might fit your bill. Or the DIY route. The friction motor might be a bit iffy, but you might be able to buy an electric front or rear wheel for not too much and use the same electronics.
- swader999 5y ago
  Friction motors are not great in the rain. The tire tread type and width, the pressure on the tire and the material of the friction drive surface are all difficult to get right. These kinds of motors are very noisy too.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
This distinction is becoming a big problem in our local mountain biking community. Most of us really wouldn’t mind if people who needed a little extra help (older people, injured people, people new to the sport) were riding bikes that provided a small assist to help out with the hills. It’s actually great to see older people being able to ride again with some help from a motor, for example. But instead, we’re seeing a lot of e-bike builders abusing the concept to hack or build bikes that are basically electric motorcycles. It gets old fast when your local mountain bike trail is now crowded with kids motoring up the mountain on their modified e-bikes without even pretending to pedal. It’s even worse when they end up deep into trails they’re not qualified to ride with a dead battery and no natural ability to pedal back out. The end result has been a blanket ban on e-bikes on most trails and a lot of animosity toward e-bikes. I wish there was a better compromise, but after watching all of the dumb outcomes play out on my local trails from a small handful of people abusing the concept, I understand why it had come to this.
- swader999 5y ago
  Do bans work? I could probably build a bike that you really couldn't tell unless you took it apart.
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    Partially. My local trail bans e-bikes and off-leash dogs, but I still run into both on a regular basis. Occasionally there will be someone waiting at the trailhead writing tickets to people who come off the trail with an e-bike or an off-leash dog. This seems to work as word spreads through Facebook groups and people stay away. Also generates some decent revenue when someone can write tickets for an hour and hand out a couple thousand dollars in fines for blatant violations (they stand right next to the very clear signage at the trailhead)
  - ip26 5y ago
    If it's indistinguishable from a regular bike, it's probably not one of the 1500kW bikes their organization had a problem with.

by treis 5y ago

germinalphrase 5y ago

Search for a 750 watt motor. That is the upper limit in many countries for a standard commercial ebike. Bafang and Tongsheng both produce popular motors.

treis 5y ago
Google says those cruise at ~30mph.
- 1-more 5y ago
  You can get really nerdy and calculate this the way triathletes/time trialists do with a tool like this[0]. I plugged in what I think my numbers are for mass and my relaxed ride CdA and on my road bike and you're on the money. [0] http://www.aeroweenie.com/calc.html http://www.aeroweenie.com/calc.html
  - morganw 5y ago
    That's really helpful. It predicts 534 Watts to get me (110kg, 0.4 CdA) to the 45kph limit for Class 3 California bikes. The Grin Technologies motor simulator https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html predicts (the "Load Line") 837 Watts for "MTB upright", 648W for "MTB, Tuck" and 570W for "Road, Tuck". I do find that in an upright position it takes 100-200W of human power in addition to 750W power measured at the input to the motor controller. The controller's pretty efficient, but the motor (GMAC) is only 85% max, so there's maybe 570W at the axle. The US CPSC and California laws aren't clear whether the 750W/1 horsepower limit is power in or power out, but power in is what shows on the display, so I limit it to that. Also, even a mild grade will cause the motor to approach the 70 deg C limit I chose after 1 minute. I live in the flattish Santa Clara County, but I'd definitely want a mid-drive if I lived in a hilly area. A 250 or 350W Riese & Müller Delite https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite/ https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite/ I test rode needed a lot of human power to hit the 45 kph max, but it climbed hills in Larkspur like a goat. 750W will have no problem getting a recumbent bike to 30MPH, but don't count on it for an upright.
  - morganw 5y ago
    Oh, and to see what 700W from a human looks like, an Olympic track cyclist toasts a piece of bread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4O5voOCqAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4O5voOCqAQ
    - 1-more 5y ago
      Yep. Bradley Wiggins's 2015 velodrome hour world record was 440W (since eclipsed in distance but not power). This puts into perspective how cheap power is in the industrial age. His hour record was the equivalent power of 35 grams of gasoline. Or it's about 5 not great power tool batteries (eyeballing eBay listings). It's gonna be tough when we have a world built for nearly free energy and we don't have the free energy anymore.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  I had guy in lycra overtake me at that speed (slight downhill). He smiled and took off.
- loeg 5y ago
  It's plausible. Pro riders put out 400-500W to do ~30 mph, but are likely in a more aerodynamic position than most ebike riders (or drafting).
  - shiftpgdn 5y ago
    Pro riders can do 30mph at around 270-300W on a flat surface as they’re typically very skinny. I need about 350-450W to do 30mph as an 88kg/1.88M male.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  Hm. You’re right. Bad suggestion. Overkill.

bootlooped 5y ago

I think the phrase e-bike generally refers to a bicycle, with operable pedals, that also has an electric motor to assist when peddling, and possibly a throttle. When I think electric motorcycle, I think of something that does not have pedals at all.

analog31 5y ago
One issue is that the pedals could be practically cosmetic, if the power added by the motor is such that pedaling is unnecessary. This was true with some early mopeds too -- the pedals were pretty much good for starting the motor and nothing else. I'm seeing more of this as e-bikes evolve towards smaller diameter, wider tires and heavier frames. The US "class" system seems useful, inasmuch as it more or less specifies the capability of the bike with and without pedaling. I'm all for adding a new transportation / recreation option, and have adopted a wait-and-see attitude for how the technology and its use will evolve. So far, e-bikes have not affected my use of a conventional bike, except for people asking me when I'm going to get an e-bike.
- mastax 5y ago
  Huh, I've never seen a moped that you could pedal like a bike even in a photo. Apparently the "ped" is from "pedal," not "pedestrian." I wonder if eBikes will follow the same path? I don't think they will, a gas motor is already disruptive enough that you may as well become a motorcycle.
  - throwaway_se099 5y ago
    I've never seen a moped that you could pedal like a bike even in a photo. As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puch_Maxi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puch_Maxi
  - analog31 5y ago
    I wonder if electric starters killed the pedals. I grew up in an area that was pretty heavily car-centric, so we didn't see a lot of alternatives. The Schwinn store got the Solex Horse, which had pedals, but they were really only useful for starting as there was one gear with a low ratio. The only next thing we saw was the Honda Spree, which as I recall had an electric starter and whatever qualified as an "automatic transmission," and I think that class of scooter is still more or less the standard today. It seemed like a big step forward in terms of ease of use.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

EPAC or Pedelec is a term used for bikes that meet the EU regulations, assist should cut off beyond 25kph (15.5mph) and you only get power when you cycle. I think there's a motor wattage maximum too so that might help your search.

treis 5y ago
Those seem to be the magic words to find what I'm looking for, thanks!
kylegordon 5y ago
yup, and 250W continuous And the great bit is that if you are ignorant of these laws and get caught on an electric bike doing higher speeds then you get a penalty as if you are riding a motorbike without insurance or a license - aka penalty points on your regular driving license, plus all the other court shenanigans.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
I'm all in for sensible regulation, but don't structure in a way that it's impossible to buy mid-speed ebike because no one knows how to certify or suddenly it costs 4x more for no apparent reason.
- aaronblohowiak 5y ago
  We call it a class 1 ebike and they are easy to buy in USA.

analog31 5y ago

This could be a market problem, like trying to buy a small car these days. People are demanding bigger, faster, more range. I know several people with e-bikes, and most of them are on their second or third bike in pursuit of more speed and power, fatter tires, shocks, etc. A used bike might fit your bill. Or the DIY route. The friction motor might be a bit iffy, but you might be able to buy an electric front or rear wheel for not too much and use the same electronics.

swader999 5y ago
Friction motors are not great in the rain. The tire tread type and width, the pressure on the tire and the material of the friction drive surface are all difficult to get right. These kinds of motors are very noisy too.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

This distinction is becoming a big problem in our local mountain biking community. Most of us really wouldn’t mind if people who needed a little extra help (older people, injured people, people new to the sport) were riding bikes that provided a small assist to help out with the hills. It’s actually great to see older people being able to ride again with some help from a motor, for example. But instead, we’re seeing a lot of e-bike builders abusing the concept to hack or build bikes that are basically electric motorcycles. It gets old fast when your local mountain bike trail is now crowded with kids motoring up the mountain on their modified e-bikes without even pretending to pedal. It’s even worse when they end up deep into trails they’re not qualified to ride with a dead battery and no natural ability to pedal back out. The end result has been a blanket ban on e-bikes on most trails and a lot of animosity toward e-bikes. I wish there was a better compromise, but after watching all of the dumb outcomes play out on my local trails from a small handful of people abusing the concept, I understand why it had come to this.

swader999 5y ago
Do bans work? I could probably build a bike that you really couldn't tell unless you took it apart.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  Partially. My local trail bans e-bikes and off-leash dogs, but I still run into both on a regular basis. Occasionally there will be someone waiting at the trailhead writing tickets to people who come off the trail with an e-bike or an off-leash dog. This seems to work as word spreads through Facebook groups and people stay away. Also generates some decent revenue when someone can write tickets for an hour and hand out a couple thousand dollars in fines for blatant violations (they stand right next to the very clear signage at the trailhead)
- ip26 5y ago
  If it's indistinguishable from a regular bike, it's probably not one of the 1500kW bikes their organization had a problem with.