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Annotating every object on the road with RFID beacons seems like it actually would be an impossible project. Yes, you can attach beacons to stoplights and signs

Annotating every object on the road with RFID beacons seems like it actually would be an impossible project. Yes, you can attach beacons to stoplights and signs (although they already have “beacons” that display in the visible light spectrum). But you can’t attach them to people like the homeless pedestrian killed by Uber’s test self driving car, animals, trash thrown on the roadway or falling off a truck, or a boulder falling from the side of a mountain. And looking at the decades-long process it took to install PTC on train lines, it would take decades to install radio beacons on everything we can and by then technology should have advanced to the point where we don’t need them.

mike00632 5y ago
I saw a trash bag on the highway yesterday. It was full but looked light, as if it were stuffed with pillows or plastic bags. I could have safely hit it with my car (I didn't) whereas other objects that size I wouldn't. This decision making happens often like with pieces of paper or plastic bags. I thought about how much contextual knowledge it takes for us to make these everyday decisions.
- secondaryacct 5y ago
  There s however one thing you cant do but an ML solution probably could: share your contextual experience at the instinct level with every driver. Say you're right and an ML model cannot know intrinsically the trash bag is safer to hit than to avoid, however, if a few car hit or avoid those for a little while they can learn of the consequence of both actions and then share them back to every other car. I suppose as long as it can properly learn, it'll get there (and, more valuable: STAY there) eventually. The brain is an efficient machine that can work in highly complex network, but I dont know if the fact every brain is born mostly blank of experience is a good or bad thing to build much more complex specialized behaviour like driving with 0 death in an entire nation.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    The leg up that I gave over a super-networked AI: I’ve seen a trash bag before. If the cars have to hit every item they see to find out what happens then we’re going to be here a while!
  - vagrantJin 5y ago
    > share your contextual experience at the instinct level with every driver. > Say you're right and an ML model cannot know intrinsically the trash bag is safer to hit than to avoid, however, if a few car hit or avoid those for a little while they can learn of the consequence of both actions and then share them back to every other car. He is definitely, 100% right. All this talk of networked AI/ML is a particularly insidious form of evangelism. Because it doesnt answer the questions that need asking.
- zarzavat 5y ago
  Perhaps it would be easier to build tougher cars rather than better ML.
- rdtsc 5y ago
  There are people who will go out of their way to mess with driverless cars and I think the car needs to handle that somehow. Heck, I’ve seen kids mess with real cars. Like the bag you mentioned, some idiots were taking cardboard boxes, filling them with rocks and putting them in the street waiting for the drivers to think “oh just it’s an empty cardboard box, not gonna slow down for it”. Somehow I can see an AI driven car, especially without a person inside, becoming a target of bullying like that.
mike_d 5y ago
It varies from state to state, but on average Type 1 (the most important) signs are replaced every 7 to 10 years. If you tag each one with some sort of RF beacon, not only do you tell the car "this is the spot to stop" you also have an absolute fixed reference point and can correct GPS or other navigational systems. At the point you know where everything is, and cars begin to share their location with each other, you have an absolute map of everything in the environment. If LIDAR detects anything that isn't part of the gold standard of what the world looks like, _that_ is an exception and handled as a danger (the person Uber should have detected had they had all the sensors turned on).
- lakis 5y ago
  Until the stop signed is knocked down and now is laying 5 meters away from the original position. Oops. You perfect spot to stop is now wrong. Guess you can't trust the stop sign to always be in the correct place after all.
jiggawatts 5y ago
It would be sufficient just to have a) consistency, and b) 2D bar codes. In most countries, every council does their own road markings and signage. Sure, there are laws, but they're implemented inconsistently. Worse, those laws are often ambiguous, intended for humans, and defined at the state level. Ideally, all of the critical markings should have a single, consistent, internationally agreed standard. This doesn't have to be every road sign, but all of the really important lane markings and basic speed limits and stop signs should be consistent. Then, these signs could have infrared 2D barcodes layered on top, which would guarantee machine readability. Humans would benefit from the consistency, but wouldn't be able to even see the bar codes.
- fragmede 5y ago
  Cones are already, within a specific jurisdiction, a rather specific shade of orange. Except for sunlight, and shade variations, and fog, and dirt, and mud, and snow. An orange cone is easy to detect, visually. The problem is all of the real-world details and complications. If cones are the issue, the first city in the world to be brave enough to issue a requirement that all their contractors use cones that are unavoidably bright to self-driving cars (whatever the specific technology for them to be unavoidable. A discussion of how the shade of orange is/isn't enough, vs a radio marker isn't interesting to me), and will license companies for self-driving cars in that specific jurisdiction, will ride to prominence. Self-driving car companies will move there, and so will tech companies and then.... So Arizona realized this and did that a few years ago. The technology's still not there but it has become some sort of hub. If the Federal government had the bandwidth to do something about it and set standards and work with manufacturers to ensure it was safe along federally recognized guidelines, then.... Okay I'm sure the big players have lobbiests and that they're working with government to do so. The problem is that'll take time and, oh hey, have you seen the news lately? I get the sense the lunch to talk about self-driving cars got cancelled.
  - jiggawatts 5y ago
    Unfortunately, traffic cones come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and colours: https://hivis.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/hivis-trafficcones_1200x1200-v2new.jpg https://hivis.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/hivis-trafficco... I've also seen vertical poles: https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-arxsrf/vpk2ddje/products/119/images/356/Ttop_Bollard_588x490__10107.1405399921.1200.1000__56765.1406756636.500.750.jpg?c=2 https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-arxsrf/vpk2ddje/products/119/... I also regularly see these water-filled barriers, in various colours including red, white, blue, and yellow: https://www.bronsonsafety.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/70e9dd8c2fe7cd5ac830f5e6cf79464c/k/i/ki1000-heavy-duty-water-filled-barrier.jpg https://www.bronsonsafety.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache... I wouldn't be surprised if some countries have custom-made things built from bamboo or whatever local materials are available...
snypher 5y ago
We don't need to include the description 'homeless' unless we're talking about their housing status.

mike00632 5y ago

I saw a trash bag on the highway yesterday. It was full but looked light, as if it were stuffed with pillows or plastic bags. I could have safely hit it with my car (I didn't) whereas other objects that size I wouldn't. This decision making happens often like with pieces of paper or plastic bags. I thought about how much contextual knowledge it takes for us to make these everyday decisions.

secondaryacct 5y ago
There s however one thing you cant do but an ML solution probably could: share your contextual experience at the instinct level with every driver. Say you're right and an ML model cannot know intrinsically the trash bag is safer to hit than to avoid, however, if a few car hit or avoid those for a little while they can learn of the consequence of both actions and then share them back to every other car. I suppose as long as it can properly learn, it'll get there (and, more valuable: STAY there) eventually. The brain is an efficient machine that can work in highly complex network, but I dont know if the fact every brain is born mostly blank of experience is a good or bad thing to build much more complex specialized behaviour like driving with 0 death in an entire nation.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  The leg up that I gave over a super-networked AI: I’ve seen a trash bag before. If the cars have to hit every item they see to find out what happens then we’re going to be here a while!
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  > share your contextual experience at the instinct level with every driver. > Say you're right and an ML model cannot know intrinsically the trash bag is safer to hit than to avoid, however, if a few car hit or avoid those for a little while they can learn of the consequence of both actions and then share them back to every other car. He is definitely, 100% right. All this talk of networked AI/ML is a particularly insidious form of evangelism. Because it doesnt answer the questions that need asking.
zarzavat 5y ago
Perhaps it would be easier to build tougher cars rather than better ML.
rdtsc 5y ago
There are people who will go out of their way to mess with driverless cars and I think the car needs to handle that somehow. Heck, I’ve seen kids mess with real cars. Like the bag you mentioned, some idiots were taking cardboard boxes, filling them with rocks and putting them in the street waiting for the drivers to think “oh just it’s an empty cardboard box, not gonna slow down for it”. Somehow I can see an AI driven car, especially without a person inside, becoming a target of bullying like that.

mike_d 5y ago

It varies from state to state, but on average Type 1 (the most important) signs are replaced every 7 to 10 years. If you tag each one with some sort of RF beacon, not only do you tell the car "this is the spot to stop" you also have an absolute fixed reference point and can correct GPS or other navigational systems. At the point you know where everything is, and cars begin to share their location with each other, you have an absolute map of everything in the environment. If LIDAR detects anything that isn't part of the gold standard of what the world looks like, _that_ is an exception and handled as a danger (the person Uber should have detected had they had all the sensors turned on).

lakis 5y ago
Until the stop signed is knocked down and now is laying 5 meters away from the original position. Oops. You perfect spot to stop is now wrong. Guess you can't trust the stop sign to always be in the correct place after all.

jiggawatts 5y ago

It would be sufficient just to have a) consistency, and b) 2D bar codes. In most countries, every council does their own road markings and signage. Sure, there are laws, but they're implemented inconsistently. Worse, those laws are often ambiguous, intended for humans, and defined at the state level. Ideally, all of the critical markings should have a single, consistent, internationally agreed standard. This doesn't have to be every road sign, but all of the really important lane markings and basic speed limits and stop signs should be consistent. Then, these signs could have infrared 2D barcodes layered on top, which would guarantee machine readability. Humans would benefit from the consistency, but wouldn't be able to even see the bar codes.

fragmede 5y ago
Cones are already, within a specific jurisdiction, a rather specific shade of orange. Except for sunlight, and shade variations, and fog, and dirt, and mud, and snow. An orange cone is easy to detect, visually. The problem is all of the real-world details and complications. If cones are the issue, the first city in the world to be brave enough to issue a requirement that all their contractors use cones that are unavoidably bright to self-driving cars (whatever the specific technology for them to be unavoidable. A discussion of how the shade of orange is/isn't enough, vs a radio marker isn't interesting to me), and will license companies for self-driving cars in that specific jurisdiction, will ride to prominence. Self-driving car companies will move there, and so will tech companies and then.... So Arizona realized this and did that a few years ago. The technology's still not there but it has become some sort of hub. If the Federal government had the bandwidth to do something about it and set standards and work with manufacturers to ensure it was safe along federally recognized guidelines, then.... Okay I'm sure the big players have lobbiests and that they're working with government to do so. The problem is that'll take time and, oh hey, have you seen the news lately? I get the sense the lunch to talk about self-driving cars got cancelled.
- jiggawatts 5y ago
  Unfortunately, traffic cones come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and colours: https://hivis.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/hivis-trafficcones_1200x1200-v2new.jpg https://hivis.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/hivis-trafficco... I've also seen vertical poles: https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-arxsrf/vpk2ddje/products/119/images/356/Ttop_Bollard_588x490__10107.1405399921.1200.1000__56765.1406756636.500.750.jpg?c=2 https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-arxsrf/vpk2ddje/products/119/... I also regularly see these water-filled barriers, in various colours including red, white, blue, and yellow: https://www.bronsonsafety.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/70e9dd8c2fe7cd5ac830f5e6cf79464c/k/i/ki1000-heavy-duty-water-filled-barrier.jpg https://www.bronsonsafety.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache... I wouldn't be surprised if some countries have custom-made things built from bamboo or whatever local materials are available...

snypher 5y ago

We don't need to include the description 'homeless' unless we're talking about their housing status.