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Copying over my comment from the last article about this: Nothing about those concerns seems specific to the end-to-end encryption compatible CSAM system they

by ummonk 5y ago

Copying over my comment from the last article about this: Nothing about those concerns seems specific to the end-to-end encryption compatible CSAM system they or Apple built... Honestly if I were Apple I'd consider just scrapping the whole thing and doing server side CSAM testing on iCloud photos without rolling out E2E encryption for iCloud photos. It's just not worth the PR blowback.

baxtr 5y ago
I think in reality 99.9% of all people don’t care at all about Apple doing this.
- maverwa 5y ago
  I‘d guess you could add a few more 9s to that. Almost all people either don’t care or like this. And if you do not fear (or do not understand) the implications and risks I see why they like what apple does. It’s one of the few topics where all of mankind (with very little exceptions) agrees: CSAM is bad! That’s why „we do it for the kids“ always works.
  - YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
    Within my circle, people do not care. They will continue to use Apple products because, "I have nothing to hide." That's what they told me when I brought it up.
    - dijit 5y ago
      My group is a bit more nuanced: most will likely stick with Apple since the effect is somewhat invisible to them, but this topic brought the question up of “should I stay on iPhone” - which is not a question you want to come up very often if you’re trying to sell these devices.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Do they allow you to look through their phones if they give that opinion?
      - maverwa 5y ago
        I think I get your point but I don’t think that’s a fair question to ask. Allowing Apple (or any other big company) to scan my hardware or letting my friends scroll to it are the distinct „risks“. There may be stuff on their that’s neither illegal nor immoral but I still would not want my friends/relatives/acquaintances to see/discuss. Sure I‘d prefer that google/Apple would not care for my browser history as well, but that’s a less direct thread.
- bobbuf 5y ago
  And 99.9% of people don't care if your algorithm is O(n) or O(n^2). It literally does not matter what clueless people think or say about this subject. The informed 0.01% (that number isn't correct but whatever) have a huge influence on things and Apple has just as many incentives to please them as they do for the "I bought a 2K device to jack off and watch Netflix" crowd.
- threeseed 5y ago
  If not higher. Right now every company is already scanning your photos server side but somehow it's an issue if its client side ? I think once people think this through a bit more it will blow over.
  - ElFitz 5y ago
    Having things server side is an optional feature that has some value. But not being able to trust the device itself makes it pretty much useless.
  - wang_li 5y ago
    Yes it’s an issue client side. I’ve never uploaded a photo to iCloud. I have no plans to do so. Getting scanned server side is effectively opt-in. Them putting the scanning client side has measurable, though minimal effects, even if I continue not to use iCloud. Not to mention that within a decade they’ll be scanning every image that passes through people’s phones.
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  I think a lot of people don't even know it's a thing, because they don't pay attention to tech news or tech philosophy. "Do you think Apple should install software on every phone that scans your device for files deemed wrongful to possess, then reports you to the authorities if such content is found?" That's what Apple wants to do. And most people think that warrantless searches are pretty fucked up. Today, those "files deemed wrongful" are images of children being abused. Tomorrow it's a video of a mass shooting that they think encourages copycats. The day after that, it's protest flyers or instructions on how to combat police during civil unrest. And yes, the NCMEC is de facto an agent of the government.
- argvargc 5y ago
  In reality, 99.9% of all people who don't understand this issue don't care at all about Apple doing this. It's similar to pointing out that 99.9% of all people don't care about enabling robust, non-SMS-based 2FA on their bank account. This speaks of a lack of knowledge about an important issue. It does not degrade the importance of the issue.
PolCPP 5y ago
Why change now when the damage is already done? People who know how bad this can turn probably already left or are figuring out how to leave Apple's ecosystem.
- hughrr 5y ago
  I’ve already left. They doubled down on it straight away. Then wheeled out Craig to tell us lies. They’re not on my side. I don’t have to be their customer. The dangerous part is they have advertised this capability. Now regimes may make that a prerequisite for allowing them to do business. Cat’s out of bag. Ain’t going back in now. We have to reevaluate any data that we do not control ourselves or control access to now. Ironically this isn’t the world I want for my kids.
  - PolCPP 5y ago
    The sad part is that the M1 Macs are like 2 generations ahead or more from the competition. I'm replacing my m1 air for an xps 13 and boy this thing can get scorching hot. On the other side, the keyboard is probably one of the best ones i've ever used on a laptop.
    - hughrr 5y ago
      They’re not that good. I just put a ryzen desktop together which runs rings around my old M1. The killer is that I can no longer lug it to Costa.
UncleMeat 5y ago
Yeah this whole conversation has been totally bizarre. The only thing new here is tagging matches on the device prior to uploading to the backend. But a huge amount of discussion is going to fears of illegal content monitoring in general.

by ummonk 5y ago

baxtr 5y ago

I think in reality 99.9% of all people don’t care at all about Apple doing this.

maverwa 5y ago
I‘d guess you could add a few more 9s to that. Almost all people either don’t care or like this. And if you do not fear (or do not understand) the implications and risks I see why they like what apple does. It’s one of the few topics where all of mankind (with very little exceptions) agrees: CSAM is bad! That’s why „we do it for the kids“ always works.
- YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
  Within my circle, people do not care. They will continue to use Apple products because, "I have nothing to hide." That's what they told me when I brought it up.
  - dijit 5y ago
    My group is a bit more nuanced: most will likely stick with Apple since the effect is somewhat invisible to them, but this topic brought the question up of “should I stay on iPhone” - which is not a question you want to come up very often if you’re trying to sell these devices.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Do they allow you to look through their phones if they give that opinion?
    - maverwa 5y ago
      I think I get your point but I don’t think that’s a fair question to ask. Allowing Apple (or any other big company) to scan my hardware or letting my friends scroll to it are the distinct „risks“. There may be stuff on their that’s neither illegal nor immoral but I still would not want my friends/relatives/acquaintances to see/discuss. Sure I‘d prefer that google/Apple would not care for my browser history as well, but that’s a less direct thread.
bobbuf 5y ago
And 99.9% of people don't care if your algorithm is O(n) or O(n^2). It literally does not matter what clueless people think or say about this subject. The informed 0.01% (that number isn't correct but whatever) have a huge influence on things and Apple has just as many incentives to please them as they do for the "I bought a 2K device to jack off and watch Netflix" crowd.
threeseed 5y ago
If not higher. Right now every company is already scanning your photos server side but somehow it's an issue if its client side ? I think once people think this through a bit more it will blow over.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  Having things server side is an optional feature that has some value. But not being able to trust the device itself makes it pretty much useless.
- wang_li 5y ago
  Yes it’s an issue client side. I’ve never uploaded a photo to iCloud. I have no plans to do so. Getting scanned server side is effectively opt-in. Them putting the scanning client side has measurable, though minimal effects, even if I continue not to use iCloud. Not to mention that within a decade they’ll be scanning every image that passes through people’s phones.
unethical_ban 5y ago
I think a lot of people don't even know it's a thing, because they don't pay attention to tech news or tech philosophy. "Do you think Apple should install software on every phone that scans your device for files deemed wrongful to possess, then reports you to the authorities if such content is found?" That's what Apple wants to do. And most people think that warrantless searches are pretty fucked up. Today, those "files deemed wrongful" are images of children being abused. Tomorrow it's a video of a mass shooting that they think encourages copycats. The day after that, it's protest flyers or instructions on how to combat police during civil unrest. And yes, the NCMEC is de facto an agent of the government.
argvargc 5y ago
In reality, 99.9% of all people who don't understand this issue don't care at all about Apple doing this. It's similar to pointing out that 99.9% of all people don't care about enabling robust, non-SMS-based 2FA on their bank account. This speaks of a lack of knowledge about an important issue. It does not degrade the importance of the issue.

PolCPP 5y ago

Why change now when the damage is already done? People who know how bad this can turn probably already left or are figuring out how to leave Apple's ecosystem.

hughrr 5y ago
I’ve already left. They doubled down on it straight away. Then wheeled out Craig to tell us lies. They’re not on my side. I don’t have to be their customer. The dangerous part is they have advertised this capability. Now regimes may make that a prerequisite for allowing them to do business. Cat’s out of bag. Ain’t going back in now. We have to reevaluate any data that we do not control ourselves or control access to now. Ironically this isn’t the world I want for my kids.
- PolCPP 5y ago
  The sad part is that the M1 Macs are like 2 generations ahead or more from the competition. I'm replacing my m1 air for an xps 13 and boy this thing can get scorching hot. On the other side, the keyboard is probably one of the best ones i've ever used on a laptop.
  - hughrr 5y ago
    They’re not that good. I just put a ryzen desktop together which runs rings around my old M1. The killer is that I can no longer lug it to Costa.

UncleMeat 5y ago

Yeah this whole conversation has been totally bizarre. The only thing new here is tagging matches on the device prior to uploading to the backend. But a huge amount of discussion is going to fears of illegal content monitoring in general.