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Telegraph has an anti-lockdown agenda to push in the UK; it is not an impartial source here. In the UK the praise for the "Sweden model" comes particularly fro

Telegraph has an anti-lockdown agenda to push in the UK; it is not an impartial source here. In the UK the praise for the "Sweden model" comes particularly from the conservative-aligned pro-business anti-lockdown lobby; who are producing PR for their proposition that "lockdowns do more (economic) harm than they do (public health) good". Right or wrong, it's certainly not impartial reporting on a foreign country, it's selling the idea that this should be policy at home. If you're reading such an article from a UK publication and you're not in the UK, then you are not the target of this marketing exercise. You are informational Bycatch.

tomp 5y ago
Does "conservative-aligned" still mean anything at all in the UK, except an ad-hominem jab on a more liberally-oriented website like HN? There's basically no more serious non-conservative political parties in the UK (Labour is mired in one scandal after another and can't elect a proper leader), whereas the COVID lockdowns (lasting roughly 8 months) were enacted by a conservative leader.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > Does "conservative-aligned" still mean anything at all in the UK When it comes to UK newspapers of course it does. > There's basically no more serious non-conservative political parties in the UK That's certainly an opinion, but one that is not relevant to talking about newspapers. > whereas the COVID lockdowns (lasting roughly 8 months) were enacted by a conservative leader. UK lockdowns were consistently too late, because the Conservative government did not want too admit the necessity. That's why the lockdowns had to be so long and repeated. Pressure like this article exits because the UK Government is know to be susceptible to it. Because they don't have their own serious plans for COVID, or actually for anything else either.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  I don't understand your argument. You seem to be saying that since there aren't any viable non-conservatives the Conservatives are not conservatives and that this newspaper isn't conservative.
spookthesunset 5y ago
Your argument is that we should ignore news media with an “anti lockdown” agenda? It may come as a surprise but not every smart, well meaning person supports the lockdowns. You can look at all the publicly available data and come to the conclusion that they were a colossal public health blunder. I would argue the pro lockdown crowd have a huge bias toward ignoring any bit of data that demonstrates lockdowns are a bad idea.
- mattmanser 5y ago
  The telegraph has pretty much become the raving loony of the right in the UK, not just because of this. It's not a good news source anymore, if you want a rational right-wing paper in the UK these days, read The Times. Used to be the other way around.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  One part of the problem is that the debate got incredibly polarized with ad hominem and thinking of the children. The majority of people on the internet citing 'science' and 'data' (regardless of side) are people who have an opinion and found a fact to support it to which they then cling for dear life. Another part of the problem is the degree to which our understanding of facts has evolved. Take, for instance, the body of evidence for and against PPE of all types and compare it to what was being said in March of 2020. The major failing of public policy was, in my opinion, the inability to articulate the difference between what we knew and what we thought. This was enhanced and exacerbated by the public wanting answers now, and refusing to countenance "we don't know". When historians looks back at this period of history, they are going to marvel at the degree to which we lionized people who "stuck to their guns" and the degree to which we denigrate people who change their opinion when the facts change.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > Your argument is that we should ignore news media with an “anti lockdown” agenda? The argument may be more 'be aware of the biases of the news media you consume'. Contrast: > Sweden has recorded more COVID-19 cases per capita than most countries so far: Since the start of the pandemic, roughly 11 out of every 100 people in Sweden have been diagnosed with COVID-19, compared with 9.4 out of every 100 in the UK and 7.4 per 100 in Italy. Sweden has also recorded around 145 COVID-19 deaths for every 100,000 people — around three times more than Denmark, eight times more than Finland, and nearly 10 times more than Norway. […] > Sweden's economy still shrank 8.6% from April to June of last year — its largest quarterly fall in at least 40 years. By comparison, Denmark's economy shrank 7.4% during that time, Norway's 5.1%, and Finland's just 3.2%. (None of these economies shrank by more than 4% over the course of 2020, though.) > Sweden's unemployment rate also rose from 6.6% in March 2020 to 9.5% in March 2021. Norway, Denmark, and Finland all saw unemployment rise by smaller margins: around one percentage point, on average. * https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-strategy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-str... * https://archive.is/dtMEG https://archive.is/dtMEG Compared to the UK (where the Telegraph is based) Sweden did pretty well—but that may not be a valid apples-apples comparison for a variety of reasons. Compared to the other Nordics—which may have more similarities (economy, demographic, geography)—Sweden did not do as well AFAICT.
anigbrowl 5y ago
Have you ever noticed that the people who reject model-derived predictions for things like pandemic and climate are extremely confident about their economic forecasting ability? If only some of these super-geniuses would share their unquestionable brilliance with other fields, not to mention eliminating recessions and financial panics.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Why do we reject model-derived projections for the stock market and accept them for climate and disease?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - acdha 5y ago
    Which one of those has intelligence? CO2 doesn’t try to stymie your mitigation plans; a virus has selective pressure but it’s stochastic rather than directed by an intelligent adversary. In contrast, the stock market has a huge number of people with massive resources who can make enormous profits when they find a way to exploit some aspect of the system.
microtherion 5y ago
Sweden not only had many more Covid-19 deaths than other Scandinavian countries they also have considerably higher unemployment: https://twitter.com/Andreas_Hopf/status/1429523341510123528 https://twitter.com/Andreas_Hopf/status/1429523341510123528 So they traded more deaths for a WORSE economy (though, as far as I know, the part about self reported mental health is true).
- kjaftaedi 5y ago
  This piece is propaganda. The overall sentiment in Sweden is that they should have done more. Even their chief epidemiologist publicly regretted their policy and wished they had followed their neighboring countries. https://www.wsj.com/articles/scientist-behind-swedens-no-lockdown-policy-says-it-wasnt-strict-enough-11591196353 https://www.wsj.com/articles/scientist-behind-swedens-no-loc...

tomp 5y ago

Does "conservative-aligned" still mean anything at all in the UK, except an ad-hominem jab on a more liberally-oriented website like HN? There's basically no more serious non-conservative political parties in the UK (Labour is mired in one scandal after another and can't elect a proper leader), whereas the COVID lockdowns (lasting roughly 8 months) were enacted by a conservative leader.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> Does "conservative-aligned" still mean anything at all in the UK When it comes to UK newspapers of course it does. > There's basically no more serious non-conservative political parties in the UK That's certainly an opinion, but one that is not relevant to talking about newspapers. > whereas the COVID lockdowns (lasting roughly 8 months) were enacted by a conservative leader. UK lockdowns were consistently too late, because the Conservative government did not want too admit the necessity. That's why the lockdowns had to be so long and repeated. Pressure like this article exits because the UK Government is know to be susceptible to it. Because they don't have their own serious plans for COVID, or actually for anything else either.
guerrilla 5y ago
I don't understand your argument. You seem to be saying that since there aren't any viable non-conservatives the Conservatives are not conservatives and that this newspaper isn't conservative.

spookthesunset 5y ago

Your argument is that we should ignore news media with an “anti lockdown” agenda? It may come as a surprise but not every smart, well meaning person supports the lockdowns. You can look at all the publicly available data and come to the conclusion that they were a colossal public health blunder. I would argue the pro lockdown crowd have a huge bias toward ignoring any bit of data that demonstrates lockdowns are a bad idea.

mattmanser 5y ago
The telegraph has pretty much become the raving loony of the right in the UK, not just because of this. It's not a good news source anymore, if you want a rational right-wing paper in the UK these days, read The Times. Used to be the other way around.
Godel_unicode 5y ago
One part of the problem is that the debate got incredibly polarized with ad hominem and thinking of the children. The majority of people on the internet citing 'science' and 'data' (regardless of side) are people who have an opinion and found a fact to support it to which they then cling for dear life. Another part of the problem is the degree to which our understanding of facts has evolved. Take, for instance, the body of evidence for and against PPE of all types and compare it to what was being said in March of 2020. The major failing of public policy was, in my opinion, the inability to articulate the difference between what we knew and what we thought. This was enhanced and exacerbated by the public wanting answers now, and refusing to countenance "we don't know". When historians looks back at this period of history, they are going to marvel at the degree to which we lionized people who "stuck to their guns" and the degree to which we denigrate people who change their opinion when the facts change.
throw0101a 5y ago
> Your argument is that we should ignore news media with an “anti lockdown” agenda? The argument may be more 'be aware of the biases of the news media you consume'. Contrast: > Sweden has recorded more COVID-19 cases per capita than most countries so far: Since the start of the pandemic, roughly 11 out of every 100 people in Sweden have been diagnosed with COVID-19, compared with 9.4 out of every 100 in the UK and 7.4 per 100 in Italy. Sweden has also recorded around 145 COVID-19 deaths for every 100,000 people — around three times more than Denmark, eight times more than Finland, and nearly 10 times more than Norway. […] > Sweden's economy still shrank 8.6% from April to June of last year — its largest quarterly fall in at least 40 years. By comparison, Denmark's economy shrank 7.4% during that time, Norway's 5.1%, and Finland's just 3.2%. (None of these economies shrank by more than 4% over the course of 2020, though.) > Sweden's unemployment rate also rose from 6.6% in March 2020 to 9.5% in March 2021. Norway, Denmark, and Finland all saw unemployment rise by smaller margins: around one percentage point, on average. * https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-strategy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-str... * https://archive.is/dtMEG https://archive.is/dtMEG Compared to the UK (where the Telegraph is based) Sweden did pretty well—but that may not be a valid apples-apples comparison for a variety of reasons. Compared to the other Nordics—which may have more similarities (economy, demographic, geography)—Sweden did not do as well AFAICT.

anigbrowl 5y ago

Have you ever noticed that the people who reject model-derived predictions for things like pandemic and climate are extremely confident about their economic forecasting ability? If only some of these super-geniuses would share their unquestionable brilliance with other fields, not to mention eliminating recessions and financial panics.

throwawayboise 5y ago
Why do we reject model-derived projections for the stock market and accept them for climate and disease?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- acdha 5y ago
  Which one of those has intelligence? CO2 doesn’t try to stymie your mitigation plans; a virus has selective pressure but it’s stochastic rather than directed by an intelligent adversary. In contrast, the stock market has a huge number of people with massive resources who can make enormous profits when they find a way to exploit some aspect of the system.

microtherion 5y ago

Sweden not only had many more Covid-19 deaths than other Scandinavian countries they also have considerably higher unemployment: https://twitter.com/Andreas_Hopf/status/1429523341510123528 https://twitter.com/Andreas_Hopf/status/1429523341510123528 So they traded more deaths for a WORSE economy (though, as far as I know, the part about self reported mental health is true).

kjaftaedi 5y ago
This piece is propaganda. The overall sentiment in Sweden is that they should have done more. Even their chief epidemiologist publicly regretted their policy and wished they had followed their neighboring countries. https://www.wsj.com/articles/scientist-behind-swedens-no-lockdown-policy-says-it-wasnt-strict-enough-11591196353 https://www.wsj.com/articles/scientist-behind-swedens-no-loc...