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Yeah I don’t get why people keep repeating that electric cars have fewer components. Most of the car is exactly the same. But batteries have thousands of parts

by Neil44 5y ago

Yeah I don’t get why people keep repeating that electric cars have fewer components. Most of the car is exactly the same. But batteries have thousands of parts and electrical connections. Motors and the attached gears also fail. Everything else is the same as IC.

throwawayboise 5y ago
The drivetrain in an EV has fewer components, but you're right about the rest of the car. But it doesn't really matter. Internal combustion engines made in the last 20 years are very reliable. Almost all the weaknesses have been identified and compensated for. I have a Ford Focus that's nearly 20 years old, it still starts and runs like a new car. Has never had a major engine or transmission issue, just a water pump and an alternator or two. Will electric motors be more reliable than internal combustion engines? Probably. But it's a difference that's not going to be noticable by most people.
- cheschire 5y ago
  If you didn't have any transmission problems, it's because you haven't had a new focus in the last 20 years.
  - Marsymars 5y ago
    The manual transmission ones have been pretty reliable.
- cogman10 5y ago
  I've a 10 year old ford edge that's been nothing but failed parts. How many miles do you have on your focus? My edge started degrading fast after about 100,000 miles.
- rlonn 5y ago
  The difference I think people will notice is how much less service a BEV requires as opposed to an ICE car. The ICE needs constant changes of oils and filters to keep those advanced engines operational, and this turns into frequent service appointments that cost money. Tesla Model 3 apparently has a 6 year service interval.
  - skhr0680 5y ago
    I drive a 2014 Toyota minivan daily for work and my total cost of oil changes is less than $100 per year. At some point charging stations will stop being free and I’m skeptical of whether BEV will really save people money compared to petrol cars.
    - dangus 5y ago
      Charging stations are not free. Only relatively early adopter Tesla owners have free charging and only at Supercharger stations, and that is a very small sliver of the market. Electric cars are still greatly more efficient on energy usage compared to gasoline cars. You'd have to grossly overcharge for electricity to make the comparison anywhere close. Use this calculator to see the difference in fuel vs. electric costs: https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
    - cogman10 5y ago
      In the low cost US states ($0.12 per kWh) that's $0.036 per mile. In highest costs states (0.38 per kWh) that's $0.114 per mile. Gas cost per mile at 30mpg @ $3.00/gal is $0.10. In most cases, yes, it's going to save money. You'd need a high MPG car in an expensive electricity state that has somewhat cheap gas to really flip that.
- byw 5y ago
  It's reliable because you changed the fluids on time. Also you lucked out with a particularly reliable model. I can guarantee you there are plenty of 20-year-old cars that are riddled with engine and tranny problems.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    That is true. I have had two Hondas that had transmission problems. The engines were great though. Surprised me given their reputation. I will not be buying any more of them.
PhantomGremlin 5y ago
Most of the car is exactly the same. The drive train is enormously different. And that's the part that breaks the most. Here are a few differences, off the top of my head (I'm not an auto engineer): Much simpler cooling. Extracting heat from batteries is easier than from an IC engine. No need for high temperature moving parts like pistons and valves. No need for oil under high pressure to cool and lubricate those parts. No need for a turbocharger, spinning at 100,000 plus RPM. No need for a complicated system of storing and delivering gasoline (tanks, pumps, injectors). No need for pollution mitigation such as EGR and Urea injection. No need for expensive catalytic converters. Around here, those are routinely stolen for the metals, in daylight, right off parked cars. No need for a transmission. Except for exotics such as a Porsche Taycan. No need for a transfer case. If there's a motor for each wheel then there's not even a need for a differential. I think the totality of differences in the drive train is profound. The change isn't minor. To riff on something that Jules Winnfield said: ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport
- mauvehaus 5y ago
  Anecdotally: suspension and steering components wear a lot more than drivetrain components under northeastern US driving conditions. And electric cars will have springs, struts, dampers, sway bar links, tie rods, ball joints, and all the rest of the parts that are routinely exposed to dirt, salt, and water and subjected to all manner of forces from random angles. By contrast, under normal operating conditions, most of the wear parts of the engine and driveline are running in a sealed environment, bathed in the appropriate lubricant, and, in the case of the engine, actively cooled to maintain optional running conditions. Al the parts that make up an ICE are incredibly mature technology. The engineering work to get the tolerances and everything else worked out that has been done over the last hundred years is unreal. And it's happened in concert with work by chemists in the lubrication industry, and every other ancillary industry. The level of reliability under normal use with regular maintenance defies belief. Like, when was the last time you gave your spark plugs even a moment's thought? The progress in metallurgy, fueling and ignition systems has made them an all but lifetime part on modern cars. I would actually wager that for most people, the least reliable and most aggravating part of their car is now the infotainment system.
Animats 5y ago
Yeah I don’t get why people keep repeating that electric cars have fewer components. But they are not cheaper, yet. Vehicles available in both IC and electric consistently cost much more for the electric model. The base model Chevy Spark is $13,600. The base model Chevy Bolt (which GM says is the successor to the electric version of the Spark) is $36,500. The base model Ford F-150 is $29,290. The base model electric Ford F-150 is about $40,000. 2022 is going to be interesting for electric vehicles. That's the year electric trucks, from Ford to Freightliner to Volvo, ship in volume. Possibly Tesla, too. Suddenly, electric vehicles will be very mainstream, doing routine jobs.
- Someone 5y ago
  In Western Europe, it’s quite common to see tenders for electric public transport bus lines or more generic tenders being won by firms offering a solution using electric buses (not necessarily on costs, but on pollution, noise levels, and environmental grounds) I think electric vehicles are mainstream there, already. It wouldn’t surprise me if all further winning bids were fully electric. For example, googling “public transport bus tenders electric” gives me - https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/de-lijn-tender-350-electric-buses/ https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/de-lijn-tender-350-elec... (Belgium, 350 buses) - https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/tm-barcelona-tender-electric-buses/ https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/tm-barcelona-tender-ele... (Barcelona, 210 buses) - https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/23/amsterdams-gvb-to-procure-up-to-142-electric-buses/ https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/23/amsterdams-gvb-to-procu... (Amsterdam, 142 buses)
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  A lot of these price differentials seem to be marketing ploys more than marginal costs realities (and/or bad amortization of [misspent hydrogen esp.] R&D funds or catch-up factory retooling costs). Chevy's Bolt for whatever reason is still marketed as "more luxury" than Chevy's Spark and comparing the base model Bolt to the base model Spark missing some configuration you'd need to get it closer to a similar base package. Chevy/GM here is teasing a mixup of things in the 2023 model year so I definitely agree that late 2022 is probably going to be really interesting for a lot of reasons when it comes to EVs (as Chevy is the big US manufacturer next most likely to feel like they've finished amortizing R&D costs across EV lines). Meanwhile Ford is definitely playing catch up and the Electric F-150 seems like it's charging for all of the above ("luxury base package", R&D costs from too many years in the hydrogen wilderness, "new and innovative" model retooling costs, etc). (Ford's an interesting dark horse in the 2022/2023 statements crowd. I think they are hedging too many bets right now, and playing way to conservatively. Current estimates are that if they got their head in the game and cut the Electric F-150 base price in half they'd dominate the US market very quickly, and there's some sentiment that if they weren't playing dumb amortization games with themselves and very easily created a less luxury package base model they are possibly in a position to do exactly that. Based on current estimates of true marginal costs.) The part that I find most interesting is that Chinese manufacturers with no ICE legacy are building cheaper cars than everyone else right now and it is amazing to watch. There are sub-$1000 cars on Alibaba today! Those sub-$1000 cars might not be strongly interesting to US market preferences right now (where "big" and "truck-like" dominate perhaps way too much), but if it is an early warning sign that the margin wars in EVs are about to get started then it is a really exciting and encouraging one.
cogman10 5y ago
> Motors and the attached gears also fail. Almost never. EV motors and their gears don't have the problem of injected pollutants in the oil. This is why most are expected to last a million miles or more. The lack of a transmission also eliminates a major point of failure (gear shifting) > But batteries have thousands of parts and electrical connections. Those aren't mechanical parts, that's the big difference. When people talk about EVs having fewer parts, they are referring to the moving parts. The parts that most commonly fail in ICE.
- alliao 5y ago
  I actually think these are all engineering problems. I mean they literally made light bulbs break when it's easy to make them last decades.
- Neil44 5y ago
  They certainly do fail, many teslas are on their third drive unit now. And batteries do also fail. Not sure why you would say otherwise.
  - cogman10 5y ago
    > many teslas are on their third drive unit now Define "many" and give a citation. Tesla warranty for the drive unit is 8 years/120,000 miles. I doubt they'd set it that high if the expectation was that these drive units are going to fail all over the place. Compare that to both ford and toyota which have a 5 years/60,000 miles powertrain warranty > And batteries do also fail They can due to manufacturing faults. However, both batteries and engines follow more of a washtub curve. > Not sure why you would say otherwise. You are overstating the failures of both.
    - Marsymars 5y ago
      Kia has a 10-year/100,000 mile powertrain warranty. I’d rate that as effectively equivalent to Tesla’s.
    - Neil44 5y ago
ryan93 5y ago
Batteries have thousands of simple parts. As compared to the incredibly high tolerances and massive varieties of parts in an engine and transmission

by Neil44 5y ago

throwawayboise 5y ago

The drivetrain in an EV has fewer components, but you're right about the rest of the car. But it doesn't really matter. Internal combustion engines made in the last 20 years are very reliable. Almost all the weaknesses have been identified and compensated for. I have a Ford Focus that's nearly 20 years old, it still starts and runs like a new car. Has never had a major engine or transmission issue, just a water pump and an alternator or two. Will electric motors be more reliable than internal combustion engines? Probably. But it's a difference that's not going to be noticable by most people.

cheschire 5y ago
If you didn't have any transmission problems, it's because you haven't had a new focus in the last 20 years.
- Marsymars 5y ago
  The manual transmission ones have been pretty reliable.
cogman10 5y ago
I've a 10 year old ford edge that's been nothing but failed parts. How many miles do you have on your focus? My edge started degrading fast after about 100,000 miles.
rlonn 5y ago
The difference I think people will notice is how much less service a BEV requires as opposed to an ICE car. The ICE needs constant changes of oils and filters to keep those advanced engines operational, and this turns into frequent service appointments that cost money. Tesla Model 3 apparently has a 6 year service interval.
- skhr0680 5y ago
  I drive a 2014 Toyota minivan daily for work and my total cost of oil changes is less than $100 per year. At some point charging stations will stop being free and I’m skeptical of whether BEV will really save people money compared to petrol cars.
  - dangus 5y ago
    Charging stations are not free. Only relatively early adopter Tesla owners have free charging and only at Supercharger stations, and that is a very small sliver of the market. Electric cars are still greatly more efficient on energy usage compared to gasoline cars. You'd have to grossly overcharge for electricity to make the comparison anywhere close. Use this calculator to see the difference in fuel vs. electric costs: https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
  - cogman10 5y ago
    In the low cost US states ($0.12 per kWh) that's $0.036 per mile. In highest costs states (0.38 per kWh) that's $0.114 per mile. Gas cost per mile at 30mpg @ $3.00/gal is $0.10. In most cases, yes, it's going to save money. You'd need a high MPG car in an expensive electricity state that has somewhat cheap gas to really flip that.
byw 5y ago
It's reliable because you changed the fluids on time. Also you lucked out with a particularly reliable model. I can guarantee you there are plenty of 20-year-old cars that are riddled with engine and tranny problems.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  That is true. I have had two Hondas that had transmission problems. The engines were great though. Surprised me given their reputation. I will not be buying any more of them.

PhantomGremlin 5y ago

Most of the car is exactly the same. The drive train is enormously different. And that's the part that breaks the most. Here are a few differences, off the top of my head (I'm not an auto engineer): Much simpler cooling. Extracting heat from batteries is easier than from an IC engine. No need for high temperature moving parts like pistons and valves. No need for oil under high pressure to cool and lubricate those parts. No need for a turbocharger, spinning at 100,000 plus RPM. No need for a complicated system of storing and delivering gasoline (tanks, pumps, injectors). No need for pollution mitigation such as EGR and Urea injection. No need for expensive catalytic converters. Around here, those are routinely stolen for the metals, in daylight, right off parked cars. No need for a transmission. Except for exotics such as a Porsche Taycan. No need for a transfer case. If there's a motor for each wheel then there's not even a need for a differential. I think the totality of differences in the drive train is profound. The change isn't minor. To riff on something that Jules Winnfield said: ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport

mauvehaus 5y ago
Anecdotally: suspension and steering components wear a lot more than drivetrain components under northeastern US driving conditions. And electric cars will have springs, struts, dampers, sway bar links, tie rods, ball joints, and all the rest of the parts that are routinely exposed to dirt, salt, and water and subjected to all manner of forces from random angles. By contrast, under normal operating conditions, most of the wear parts of the engine and driveline are running in a sealed environment, bathed in the appropriate lubricant, and, in the case of the engine, actively cooled to maintain optional running conditions. Al the parts that make up an ICE are incredibly mature technology. The engineering work to get the tolerances and everything else worked out that has been done over the last hundred years is unreal. And it's happened in concert with work by chemists in the lubrication industry, and every other ancillary industry. The level of reliability under normal use with regular maintenance defies belief. Like, when was the last time you gave your spark plugs even a moment's thought? The progress in metallurgy, fueling and ignition systems has made them an all but lifetime part on modern cars. I would actually wager that for most people, the least reliable and most aggravating part of their car is now the infotainment system.

Animats 5y ago

Yeah I don’t get why people keep repeating that electric cars have fewer components. But they are not cheaper, yet. Vehicles available in both IC and electric consistently cost much more for the electric model. The base model Chevy Spark is $13,600. The base model Chevy Bolt (which GM says is the successor to the electric version of the Spark) is $36,500. The base model Ford F-150 is $29,290. The base model electric Ford F-150 is about $40,000. 2022 is going to be interesting for electric vehicles. That's the year electric trucks, from Ford to Freightliner to Volvo, ship in volume. Possibly Tesla, too. Suddenly, electric vehicles will be very mainstream, doing routine jobs.

Someone 5y ago
In Western Europe, it’s quite common to see tenders for electric public transport bus lines or more generic tenders being won by firms offering a solution using electric buses (not necessarily on costs, but on pollution, noise levels, and environmental grounds) I think electric vehicles are mainstream there, already. It wouldn’t surprise me if all further winning bids were fully electric. For example, googling “public transport bus tenders electric” gives me - https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/de-lijn-tender-350-electric-buses/ https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/de-lijn-tender-350-elec... (Belgium, 350 buses) - https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/tm-barcelona-tender-electric-buses/ https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/tm-barcelona-tender-ele... (Barcelona, 210 buses) - https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/23/amsterdams-gvb-to-procure-up-to-142-electric-buses/ https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/23/amsterdams-gvb-to-procu... (Amsterdam, 142 buses)
WorldMaker 5y ago
A lot of these price differentials seem to be marketing ploys more than marginal costs realities (and/or bad amortization of [misspent hydrogen esp.] R&D funds or catch-up factory retooling costs). Chevy's Bolt for whatever reason is still marketed as "more luxury" than Chevy's Spark and comparing the base model Bolt to the base model Spark missing some configuration you'd need to get it closer to a similar base package. Chevy/GM here is teasing a mixup of things in the 2023 model year so I definitely agree that late 2022 is probably going to be really interesting for a lot of reasons when it comes to EVs (as Chevy is the big US manufacturer next most likely to feel like they've finished amortizing R&D costs across EV lines). Meanwhile Ford is definitely playing catch up and the Electric F-150 seems like it's charging for all of the above ("luxury base package", R&D costs from too many years in the hydrogen wilderness, "new and innovative" model retooling costs, etc). (Ford's an interesting dark horse in the 2022/2023 statements crowd. I think they are hedging too many bets right now, and playing way to conservatively. Current estimates are that if they got their head in the game and cut the Electric F-150 base price in half they'd dominate the US market very quickly, and there's some sentiment that if they weren't playing dumb amortization games with themselves and very easily created a less luxury package base model they are possibly in a position to do exactly that. Based on current estimates of true marginal costs.) The part that I find most interesting is that Chinese manufacturers with no ICE legacy are building cheaper cars than everyone else right now and it is amazing to watch. There are sub-$1000 cars on Alibaba today! Those sub-$1000 cars might not be strongly interesting to US market preferences right now (where "big" and "truck-like" dominate perhaps way too much), but if it is an early warning sign that the margin wars in EVs are about to get started then it is a really exciting and encouraging one.

cogman10 5y ago

> Motors and the attached gears also fail. Almost never. EV motors and their gears don't have the problem of injected pollutants in the oil. This is why most are expected to last a million miles or more. The lack of a transmission also eliminates a major point of failure (gear shifting) > But batteries have thousands of parts and electrical connections. Those aren't mechanical parts, that's the big difference. When people talk about EVs having fewer parts, they are referring to the moving parts. The parts that most commonly fail in ICE.

alliao 5y ago
I actually think these are all engineering problems. I mean they literally made light bulbs break when it's easy to make them last decades.
Neil44 5y ago
They certainly do fail, many teslas are on their third drive unit now. And batteries do also fail. Not sure why you would say otherwise.
- cogman10 5y ago
  > many teslas are on their third drive unit now Define "many" and give a citation. Tesla warranty for the drive unit is 8 years/120,000 miles. I doubt they'd set it that high if the expectation was that these drive units are going to fail all over the place. Compare that to both ford and toyota which have a 5 years/60,000 miles powertrain warranty > And batteries do also fail They can due to manufacturing faults. However, both batteries and engines follow more of a washtub curve. > Not sure why you would say otherwise. You are overstating the failures of both.
  - Marsymars 5y ago
    Kia has a 10-year/100,000 mile powertrain warranty. I’d rate that as effectively equivalent to Tesla’s.
  - Neil44 5y ago

ryan93 5y ago

Batteries have thousands of simple parts. As compared to the incredibly high tolerances and massive varieties of parts in an engine and transmission