4 ms·

So what does TSMC then do that no one else can replicate if they use these machines?

by rapsey 5y ago

Fronzie 5y ago
Calibration and following working procedures. The lithography machines have endless knobs to tune. It has to be done well to get a decent yield out of a factory.
- rapsey 5y ago
  Seems a bit simplified...
woudsma 5y ago
Apparently the machines are pretty hard to replicate, the company (ASML) has had to deal with a couple of corporate espionage cases in the past[0]. [0]: https://nos.nl/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-chinese-overheid-met-de-spionage-bij-asml-te-maken https://nos.nl/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-chinese-overheid... (in Dutch)
- rapsey 5y ago
  What I meant was TSMC uses these machines. Anyone else (except the Chinese I guess?) can also use these machines. What is the TSMC secret sauce that no one else can match?
  - Stevvo 5y ago
    Think of these machines as being what a paint brush is to an artist; it's just a tool. Anyone can buy a paintbrush, but it takes much skill and experience to paint a masterpiece. Even if you have a masterpiece in your possession to try and copy, you will fail.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
    It's not a single thing, it's everything. State of the art fabs require precision control of an incredible number of process steps each with an incredible number of tunable dimensions. These machines are just one piece of the puzzle. A key piece, but buying the machines does not a fab make.
  - treme 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loiltpe6q-s&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loiltpe6q-s&t=3s fantastic channel that goes in depth on chip industry
  - Keyframe 5y ago
    It's one (well, few) step of the process, albeit probably the most important.
  - wonnage 5y ago
    Semiconductor manufacturing seems to have a very big winner-takes-all advantage, it takes enormous amounts of capital and 3-5 years to start a new fab, and the incumbents own a complicated web of secrets and patents that are basically impossible to navigate.
bazooka_penguin 5y ago
The lithography is just a step of the process. I'm just a layman but there's a lot of chemistry involved in just the processing of materials like coating and etching the wafers, particle bombardment, etc. Even the conditions and environment in which the lithography is done makes a big difference.
ren_engineer 5y ago
just having a fancy computer doesn't make somebody a great programmer
nabla9 5y ago
TSMC and Samsung are two companies that have competitive technology node in EUV (Intel struggling). It means they have invented ways to use these machines to print extremely small transistors and that are fast, energy efficient and have good yield (less failures in the process).
tpmx 5y ago
Peripheral knowledge (worked in Taiwan earlier): I suspect the following might be a big part of the secret sauce: a) Having a culture where EE work is more prestigeous than software work, leading to smart people going there. b) Having spent decades on scaling up the national university system for engineering educations, starting from the 80s electronics design/manufacturing boom. c) Having a low salary level, internationally speaking. The combination of a large, smart and affordable work force for something like this is pretty hard to beat.

So what does TSMC then do that no one else can replicate if they use these machines?

by rapsey 5y ago

So what does TSMC then do that no one else can replicate if they use these machines?

Calibration and following working procedures. The lithography machines have endless knobs to tune. It has to be done well to get a decent yield out of a factory.

rapsey 5y ago
Seems a bit simplified...

woudsma 5y ago

Apparently the machines are pretty hard to replicate, the company (ASML) has had to deal with a couple of corporate espionage cases in the past[0]. [0]: https://nos.nl/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-chinese-overheid-met-de-spionage-bij-asml-te-maken https://nos.nl/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-chinese-overheid... (in Dutch)

rapsey 5y ago
What I meant was TSMC uses these machines. Anyone else (except the Chinese I guess?) can also use these machines. What is the TSMC secret sauce that no one else can match?
- Stevvo 5y ago
  Think of these machines as being what a paint brush is to an artist; it's just a tool. Anyone can buy a paintbrush, but it takes much skill and experience to paint a masterpiece. Even if you have a masterpiece in your possession to try and copy, you will fail.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  It's not a single thing, it's everything. State of the art fabs require precision control of an incredible number of process steps each with an incredible number of tunable dimensions. These machines are just one piece of the puzzle. A key piece, but buying the machines does not a fab make.
- treme 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loiltpe6q-s&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loiltpe6q-s&t=3s fantastic channel that goes in depth on chip industry
- Keyframe 5y ago
  It's one (well, few) step of the process, albeit probably the most important.
- wonnage 5y ago
  Semiconductor manufacturing seems to have a very big winner-takes-all advantage, it takes enormous amounts of capital and 3-5 years to start a new fab, and the incumbents own a complicated web of secrets and patents that are basically impossible to navigate.

bazooka_penguin 5y ago

The lithography is just a step of the process. I'm just a layman but there's a lot of chemistry involved in just the processing of materials like coating and etching the wafers, particle bombardment, etc. Even the conditions and environment in which the lithography is done makes a big difference.

ren_engineer 5y ago

just having a fancy computer doesn't make somebody a great programmer

nabla9 5y ago

TSMC and Samsung are two companies that have competitive technology node in EUV (Intel struggling). It means they have invented ways to use these machines to print extremely small transistors and that are fast, energy efficient and have good yield (less failures in the process).

tpmx 5y ago

Peripheral knowledge (worked in Taiwan earlier): I suspect the following might be a big part of the secret sauce: a) Having a culture where EE work is more prestigeous than software work, leading to smart people going there. b) Having spent decades on scaling up the national university system for engineering educations, starting from the 80s electronics design/manufacturing boom. c) Having a low salary level, internationally speaking. The combination of a large, smart and affordable work force for something like this is pretty hard to beat.