3 ms·

> It's bold of you to keep raising this "anti-vaccination" point By reducing my statements to simply "anti-vaccination" you're missing the entire nuance of the

> It's bold of you to keep raising this "anti-vaccination" point By reducing my statements to simply "anti-vaccination" you're missing the entire nuance of the argument. I've cited substantial scientific literature which supports the fact that leaky vaccines combined with COMPULSORY mass vaccination can have unexpected and dangerous consequences in terms of viral evolution. Vaccines are a powerful tool and help save lives, and we should definitely use them. But if used indiscriminately, they can backfire in complex ways. This is extremely pertinent to OP and the discussion on this thread. It's not charitable or informed of you to reduce my comment to "anti-vaccination" rhetoric. To suggest that I have an "agenda" or that I'm spreading "misinformation" - especially without any supporting references - means your comment is purely ad hominem. Like you, many others here immediately react negatively to comments that promote anti-vax misinformation. I understand, empathize with, and support that. But after lengthy debate, the person who made the comment you quoted eventually admitted that they over-reacted, and that my argument was more nuanced than they initially realized. I have not stopped sharing the literature supporting these ideas because many people are completely unaware of the possibility and consequences of vaccine induced immune escape. My comments are in the spirit of fostering sincere and informed debate - nothing more, and nothing less.

woofie11 5y ago
Spirited and informed debate: Virtually everything I see suggests that the effect is bimodal: 1. Everyone gets vaccinated at the same time, and the disease goes away. Not a lot of disease means not a lot of mutations. 2. No one gets vaccinated, and there is no such effect. If immune escape is an issue, it seems like the solution would be 100% MANDATORY vaccinations, and to perform vaccinations all at once, region by region, so there are no populations which mix vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. I can't see how making vaccinations non-compulsory will do anything good. Where I live, 2/3 are vaccinated, and 1/3 are not. Virus is spiking, and there are a lot of opportunities for escape from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated. After a few months of similar effect, vaccine effectiveness fell from 95% to around 50%. I think you gave a very strong argument FOR compulsory vaccination.
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  > Everyone gets vaccinated at the same time [...] region by region, so there are no populations which mix vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals This is logistically impossible and completely unrealistic. If you can find any literature or any experts suggesting that this is feasible, please share. > and the disease goes away Even if we did manage do achieve what you suggested, the current vaccines do not guarantee sterilizing immunity. This means that even vaccinated individuals can be infected and transmit the virus, which still gives plenty of opportunity for the virus to mutate and eventually evolve to escape the immune response in the theoretical 100% vaccinated population. > I can't see how making vaccinations non-compulsory will do anything good There are many viral elimination strategies that complement vaccination - for example multi-drug treatment using widely available and existing medicines [1][2][3][4][5]. The key is that using a diverse set of strategies helps reduce the possibility and risk of vaccine resistance. > I think you gave a very strong argument FOR compulsory vaccination. I appreciate the spirited discussion but your comment does not seem particularly well informed - it completely disregards the concerns and arguments put forth by experts in the field, which I've outlined in my previous comments. [1] Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1139&context=infectiousdiseases_articles https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... [2] Clinical outcomes after early ambulatory multidrug therapy for high-risk SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) infection https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=5074 https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?a... [3] Early multidrug treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) and reduced mortality among nursing home (or outpatient/ambulatory) residents https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987721001419 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03069... [4] Multidrug treatment for COVID-19 https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_2021.01005/_pdf https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_202... [5] Ivermectin in combination with doxycycline for treating COVID-19 symptoms: a randomized trial https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983065/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983065/
  - ScottBurson 5y ago
    As a recommendation to individuals, the suggestion to seek early treatment -- indeed, to apply certain treatments immediately to oneself -- is, I believe, sound, and I second it. But the situation as regards public health policy and messaging is more complicated. Denial is among the most human of emotional patterns; many people do not want to face the possibility that they've contracted a dread disease, and will procrastinate seeking treatment until they are quite ill. Altering that behavior on a large scale strikes me as a very heavy lift; but that is what we would have to do to pursue a public health strategy that leans heavily on early treatment. If you think it's doable anyway, why has no other country done it? That said, the risk of vaccine escape seems to be real. Perhaps that's why the CDC is telling us to expect boosters.

woofie11 5y ago

Spirited and informed debate: Virtually everything I see suggests that the effect is bimodal: 1. Everyone gets vaccinated at the same time, and the disease goes away. Not a lot of disease means not a lot of mutations. 2. No one gets vaccinated, and there is no such effect. If immune escape is an issue, it seems like the solution would be 100% MANDATORY vaccinations, and to perform vaccinations all at once, region by region, so there are no populations which mix vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. I can't see how making vaccinations non-compulsory will do anything good. Where I live, 2/3 are vaccinated, and 1/3 are not. Virus is spiking, and there are a lot of opportunities for escape from the unvaccinated to the vaccinated. After a few months of similar effect, vaccine effectiveness fell from 95% to around 50%. I think you gave a very strong argument FOR compulsory vaccination.

criticaltinker 5y ago
> Everyone gets vaccinated at the same time [...] region by region, so there are no populations which mix vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals This is logistically impossible and completely unrealistic. If you can find any literature or any experts suggesting that this is feasible, please share. > and the disease goes away Even if we did manage do achieve what you suggested, the current vaccines do not guarantee sterilizing immunity. This means that even vaccinated individuals can be infected and transmit the virus, which still gives plenty of opportunity for the virus to mutate and eventually evolve to escape the immune response in the theoretical 100% vaccinated population. > I can't see how making vaccinations non-compulsory will do anything good There are many viral elimination strategies that complement vaccination - for example multi-drug treatment using widely available and existing medicines [1][2][3][4][5]. The key is that using a diverse set of strategies helps reduce the possibility and risk of vaccine resistance. > I think you gave a very strong argument FOR compulsory vaccination. I appreciate the spirited discussion but your comment does not seem particularly well informed - it completely disregards the concerns and arguments put forth by experts in the field, which I've outlined in my previous comments. [1] Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1139&context=infectiousdiseases_articles https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... [2] Clinical outcomes after early ambulatory multidrug therapy for high-risk SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) infection https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=5074 https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?a... [3] Early multidrug treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) and reduced mortality among nursing home (or outpatient/ambulatory) residents https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987721001419 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03069... [4] Multidrug treatment for COVID-19 https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_2021.01005/_pdf https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_202... [5] Ivermectin in combination with doxycycline for treating COVID-19 symptoms: a randomized trial https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983065/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983065/
- ScottBurson 5y ago
  As a recommendation to individuals, the suggestion to seek early treatment -- indeed, to apply certain treatments immediately to oneself -- is, I believe, sound, and I second it. But the situation as regards public health policy and messaging is more complicated. Denial is among the most human of emotional patterns; many people do not want to face the possibility that they've contracted a dread disease, and will procrastinate seeking treatment until they are quite ill. Altering that behavior on a large scale strikes me as a very heavy lift; but that is what we would have to do to pursue a public health strategy that leans heavily on early treatment. If you think it's doable anyway, why has no other country done it? That said, the risk of vaccine escape seems to be real. Perhaps that's why the CDC is telling us to expect boosters.