63 ms·

The biggest misconception about hydrogen is that it has something to do with cars. The whole "but BEV!" discussion is a distraction that has nothing to do with

by hannob 5y ago

The biggest misconception about hydrogen is that it has something to do with cars. The whole "but BEV!" discussion is a distraction that has nothing to do with the real use cases of hydrogen. Hydrogen will be extremely important in a decarbonized economy, e.g. as a chemical feedstock or as a reduction agent for steel. Likely it will also form the basis of some fuels for ships (maybe ammonia) or planes.

hollerith 5y ago
If ammonia-powered ships are visiting a port, then that port and any nearby cities need an evacuation plan in case of an ammonia leak.
- hannob 5y ago
  Ammonia has potential safety issues, but you should be aware that there are already ammonia ports and ammonia ships. Not using it as a fuel, but transporting it. So while ammonia needs to be handled safely if it's being used as a fuel, there already is a big ammonia industry today that has plenty of experience in handling it.
specialist 5y ago
Correct. The threshold is renewable energy used to produce methane and ammonia, more economically than fossil fuels sources. Then H2 economy becomes inevitable. For transportation, tackling all the use cases Li-ion doesn't. In other words, FCEV compliments BEV. If we unlock H2 soon, maybe civilization can survive climate crisis.
Gibbon1 5y ago
> reduction agent for steel Direct electrwinning is about 85-90% efficient. Why add an extra step by using hydrogen? Not to mention eletrowinning iron is a wet process. Where with reduction with hydrogen is a hot process. I think 'hydrogen' is basically just an attempt to preserve the legacy power relations that have grown up around coal/oil/natural gas. If people can be convinced it's viable they can kick the can down the road for another 10-20 years.
- layoric 5y ago
  Storage and transportability. Even if end to end efficiency is between 10-20% for green hydrogen (solar/wind electricity generation -> electrolysis -> hydrogen/ammonia -> fuel cell -> electricity), it helps solve the problem around intermittency for renewables. To power a large electricity network with just wind/solar, it will need to be over-provisioned to the point where peak production will be heavily curtailed and lost or redirected to storage. Electricity needs to be used at the time of supply for something otherwise generation is wasted. Batteries are great if you need to redirect that power over the course of an hour or maybe a day and are highly efficient but too costly at any kind of large scale. Most solar/wind at present day are only built with battery support of about 1-2 hours worth of equivalent storage. This is a massive help to smooth output but doesn’t help any kind of long term storage. Then there is transport. Poles and wires are expensive to build/maintain. Their highly efficient but completely inflexible. Hydrogen can be stored at large scales as well as be transported, plus be generated from generation that would otherwise be curtailed and lost due to having nothing to use it on. Pumped hydro needs specific geography and is also hugely damaging to river eco systems, not to mention ties up a huge amount of a valuable resource (water). Renewables also geographically dependent, some places on earth are bestowed with huge amounts of wind/solar where others are not. Some of this will be solved by building international power lines, but smaller scale will likely want something like hydrogen fuel. I’m very cynical of old/current energy companies and they are doing everything they can to slow this transition but hydrogen will very likely be part of the mix into the future. What I’m not sure of is if it will serve a massive part like heating Europe over winter via excess generated over summer or much smaller for backup of more remote decentralised grids I don’t know but it will definitely play a part in the energy mix for generations to come.
- hannob 5y ago
  > Direct electrwinning is about 85-90% efficient. The technology for that is at a very early stage of development, only lab-scale experiments exist. (see https://www.siderwin-spire.eu/ https://www.siderwin-spire.eu/ ) It's decades away from any real-world use. It's fine to look for better alternatives, but hydrogen-based stell is the technology you can start using in the next couple of years.

by hannob 5y ago

hollerith 5y ago

If ammonia-powered ships are visiting a port, then that port and any nearby cities need an evacuation plan in case of an ammonia leak.

hannob 5y ago
Ammonia has potential safety issues, but you should be aware that there are already ammonia ports and ammonia ships. Not using it as a fuel, but transporting it. So while ammonia needs to be handled safely if it's being used as a fuel, there already is a big ammonia industry today that has plenty of experience in handling it.

specialist 5y ago

Correct. The threshold is renewable energy used to produce methane and ammonia, more economically than fossil fuels sources. Then H2 economy becomes inevitable. For transportation, tackling all the use cases Li-ion doesn't. In other words, FCEV compliments BEV. If we unlock H2 soon, maybe civilization can survive climate crisis.

Gibbon1 5y ago

> reduction agent for steel Direct electrwinning is about 85-90% efficient. Why add an extra step by using hydrogen? Not to mention eletrowinning iron is a wet process. Where with reduction with hydrogen is a hot process. I think 'hydrogen' is basically just an attempt to preserve the legacy power relations that have grown up around coal/oil/natural gas. If people can be convinced it's viable they can kick the can down the road for another 10-20 years.

layoric 5y ago
Storage and transportability. Even if end to end efficiency is between 10-20% for green hydrogen (solar/wind electricity generation -> electrolysis -> hydrogen/ammonia -> fuel cell -> electricity), it helps solve the problem around intermittency for renewables. To power a large electricity network with just wind/solar, it will need to be over-provisioned to the point where peak production will be heavily curtailed and lost or redirected to storage. Electricity needs to be used at the time of supply for something otherwise generation is wasted. Batteries are great if you need to redirect that power over the course of an hour or maybe a day and are highly efficient but too costly at any kind of large scale. Most solar/wind at present day are only built with battery support of about 1-2 hours worth of equivalent storage. This is a massive help to smooth output but doesn’t help any kind of long term storage. Then there is transport. Poles and wires are expensive to build/maintain. Their highly efficient but completely inflexible. Hydrogen can be stored at large scales as well as be transported, plus be generated from generation that would otherwise be curtailed and lost due to having nothing to use it on. Pumped hydro needs specific geography and is also hugely damaging to river eco systems, not to mention ties up a huge amount of a valuable resource (water). Renewables also geographically dependent, some places on earth are bestowed with huge amounts of wind/solar where others are not. Some of this will be solved by building international power lines, but smaller scale will likely want something like hydrogen fuel. I’m very cynical of old/current energy companies and they are doing everything they can to slow this transition but hydrogen will very likely be part of the mix into the future. What I’m not sure of is if it will serve a massive part like heating Europe over winter via excess generated over summer or much smaller for backup of more remote decentralised grids I don’t know but it will definitely play a part in the energy mix for generations to come.
hannob 5y ago
> Direct electrwinning is about 85-90% efficient. The technology for that is at a very early stage of development, only lab-scale experiments exist. (see https://www.siderwin-spire.eu/ https://www.siderwin-spire.eu/ ) It's decades away from any real-world use. It's fine to look for better alternatives, but hydrogen-based stell is the technology you can start using in the next couple of years.