4 ms·

Kei cars seem like an ideal candidate for electrification though; they don't need to have high top speeds and are also significantly more lightweight than regul

Kei cars seem like an ideal candidate for electrification though; they don't need to have high top speeds and are also significantly more lightweight than regular-sized cars.

rootsudo 5y ago
No they are small - the battery will increase weight and they may not be able to do much to put in a motor and battery. Most kei cars are FWD and have very compact engine/transmissions - like I would say at max 2 milk crates side by side. 3 cylinder engines are common.
- bouncycastle 5y ago
  Yeah, they are small, but seem to fit perfectly on Japanese narrow roads and small garages. For a lot of people in JP, it's the only option because of the size, a larger car would simply not fit in their driveway / garage.
- rjsw 5y ago
  There are European electric cars similar to Kei cars. Smart EQ, Renault Twingo, the Citroën Ami is smaller still.
  - gregoriol 5y ago
    While the Smart and Renault examples are regular cars but small (Mini and BMW i3 are about the same category), the Citroën Ami is a bit different: it can be driven without a licence, could work for teenagers for example, and some other specialised brands exist for those tiny/simple/quiet cars like Aixam (https://www.aixam.com/en/e-aixam-range https://www.aixam.com/en/e-aixam-range). Renault also had the Twizy in that category.
  - numpad0 5y ago
    Smart or Twingo don’t qualify as Kei cars FWIW. Ami might?
    - sp332 5y ago
      The Smart EQ is small enough to be a Kei car and could downrate the engine from 80HP to 63. Is it missing something else from the category?
      - numpad0 5y ago
        Technically it’s not far too wide but it’s…it feels too thick and nice to call it a Kei to me, Kei is more like Ford Transit van scaled down to Smart footprint while retaining four seatbelts. Maybe this is a pedantic argument like whether a Dyson cleaners qualify as “a typical handy vacuum” but those aren’t bland Walmart specials.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      Smart fortwo is sold as kei car, named Smart K.
- TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
  Wouldn't a kei car be used for shorter distances than a full-size car, and thus not need so large a battery?
  - bouncycastle 5y ago
    For many in Japan, it's the only car option, so I assume that the distance it needs to go is the same as a full-sized car. (I often see them on inter-city expressways). They do tend to go much slower & the acceleration is awfully clunky, but their range & efficiency is amazing.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      Chances are they don’t go far. Most people drastically overestimate how far they drive. Iirc the 95th percentile commute in America is still like 40 miles or so, trivially reachable for even the lowest quality EVs on the market. I doubt that your average Japanese car commuter travels further than your average American car commuter.
  - themihai 5y ago
    I believe this is the biggest misconception among automakers...that people like to buy multiple cars: city cars, long range cards and ...mountain cars? In reality people like the city car to be able to do long range trips as well as that's the only car they can afford/want to buy. People don't want to buy two cars, one used 90% for everyday trips and the other 10% (i.e in holiday etc).
    - lucb1e 5y ago
      I wonder if we will be able to get used to renting things when we need them only sometimes, or if indeed people will continue to want an all-purpose car which then lugs around half a ton of batteries while they run errands all year. Having a rich daddy with too many cars, it was honestly quite the realization that I could just rent a car and not buy one (or, up till that point, borrow it from dad). The year before the pandemic is when that hit me and so I did that with some friends to go to a conference. Was quite happy with the experience: luxury car for 5 days for iirc 250 euros plus petrol, divided by four people.
qball 5y ago
However, they need more than 60 miles (!) of range and their batteries mean they're more comparable weight-wise with a normal gas-powered compact sedan (they're roughly 400 pounds heavier than other cars of their class). And that range is measured when they're new- battery degradation is much more significant when your range barely covers your commute; add cold weather taking off another 20% of that range and now you can't make it to work and back without needing to stop at a charger. Battery energy density just isn't enough in this application for it to make sense for this type of vehicle.
ashtonkem 5y ago
A non trivial number of the basic EVs on sale in CA are basically Kei cars for the American market.

Kei cars seem like an ideal candidate for electrification though; they don't need to have high top speeds and are also significantly more lightweight than regular-sized cars.

rootsudo 5y ago

No they are small - the battery will increase weight and they may not be able to do much to put in a motor and battery. Most kei cars are FWD and have very compact engine/transmissions - like I would say at max 2 milk crates side by side. 3 cylinder engines are common.

bouncycastle 5y ago
Yeah, they are small, but seem to fit perfectly on Japanese narrow roads and small garages. For a lot of people in JP, it's the only option because of the size, a larger car would simply not fit in their driveway / garage.
rjsw 5y ago
There are European electric cars similar to Kei cars. Smart EQ, Renault Twingo, the Citroën Ami is smaller still.
- gregoriol 5y ago
  While the Smart and Renault examples are regular cars but small (Mini and BMW i3 are about the same category), the Citroën Ami is a bit different: it can be driven without a licence, could work for teenagers for example, and some other specialised brands exist for those tiny/simple/quiet cars like Aixam (https://www.aixam.com/en/e-aixam-range https://www.aixam.com/en/e-aixam-range). Renault also had the Twizy in that category.
- numpad0 5y ago
  Smart or Twingo don’t qualify as Kei cars FWIW. Ami might?
  - sp332 5y ago
    The Smart EQ is small enough to be a Kei car and could downrate the engine from 80HP to 63. Is it missing something else from the category?
    - numpad0 5y ago
      Technically it’s not far too wide but it’s…it feels too thick and nice to call it a Kei to me, Kei is more like Ford Transit van scaled down to Smart footprint while retaining four seatbelts. Maybe this is a pedantic argument like whether a Dyson cleaners qualify as “a typical handy vacuum” but those aren’t bland Walmart specials.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    Smart fortwo is sold as kei car, named Smart K.
TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
Wouldn't a kei car be used for shorter distances than a full-size car, and thus not need so large a battery?
- bouncycastle 5y ago
  For many in Japan, it's the only car option, so I assume that the distance it needs to go is the same as a full-sized car. (I often see them on inter-city expressways). They do tend to go much slower & the acceleration is awfully clunky, but their range & efficiency is amazing.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    Chances are they don’t go far. Most people drastically overestimate how far they drive. Iirc the 95th percentile commute in America is still like 40 miles or so, trivially reachable for even the lowest quality EVs on the market. I doubt that your average Japanese car commuter travels further than your average American car commuter.
- themihai 5y ago
  I believe this is the biggest misconception among automakers...that people like to buy multiple cars: city cars, long range cards and ...mountain cars? In reality people like the city car to be able to do long range trips as well as that's the only car they can afford/want to buy. People don't want to buy two cars, one used 90% for everyday trips and the other 10% (i.e in holiday etc).
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    I wonder if we will be able to get used to renting things when we need them only sometimes, or if indeed people will continue to want an all-purpose car which then lugs around half a ton of batteries while they run errands all year. Having a rich daddy with too many cars, it was honestly quite the realization that I could just rent a car and not buy one (or, up till that point, borrow it from dad). The year before the pandemic is when that hit me and so I did that with some friends to go to a conference. Was quite happy with the experience: luxury car for 5 days for iirc 250 euros plus petrol, divided by four people.

qball 5y ago

However, they need more than 60 miles (!) of range and their batteries mean they're more comparable weight-wise with a normal gas-powered compact sedan (they're roughly 400 pounds heavier than other cars of their class). And that range is measured when they're new- battery degradation is much more significant when your range barely covers your commute; add cold weather taking off another 20% of that range and now you can't make it to work and back without needing to stop at a charger. Battery energy density just isn't enough in this application for it to make sense for this type of vehicle.

ashtonkem 5y ago

A non trivial number of the basic EVs on sale in CA are basically Kei cars for the American market.