8 ms·

Why God Hates German Words

180 points by bdr 15y ago

zwp 15y ago
I enjoyed this article although I suspect its factual veracity (oops, err, truth). For one thing LEOs don't say "individual" because they're romance language kowtowers but rather because it's an instance of the largest valid superclass of man/child/woman/girl/boy/teenager/infant/... Similarly, it's not "Sir, please get out of the Porsche 911" but "Sir, please get out of the vehicle". "Vehicle" is factually correct whatever the beliefs of the other party ("this is not just a car!"). Perhaps I'm not smart enough to catch all of the nuances in the article. For example the very first sentence's "grandmother" is splendidly etymologically ambiguous (grossmutter/grandmere), is this intentional? Similarly "smart" (allegedly dumb German word) is derived via German smerzan, Latin mordere, Greek smerdnos (according to my dictionary).
- KennethMyers 15y ago
  Post author here. You're right about "smart." There are other minor inaccuracies that other people pointed out. The origin of "fuck" isn't clear. Were the anglo-saxons actually enslaved? (I'd say yes. Serfdom/slavery, what's the differece?) I didn't write this thing like a researcher. I wrote it like a daytime applied linguist with a secret passion for his crazy-ass blog. I'll do a rigorous one if people actually want that.
  - sophacles 15y ago
    I actually want that... but don't do extra work because I ask nicely -- I will gladly pay for an (e)book on this topic, if it was written at a "smart layman"'s level. I think its fascinating, but not career fascinating, if you know what I mean. I just want to read about these things and maybe be able to impress strangers with random facts that were well researched by some person who knows what he's talking about.
    - icebraining 15y ago
      "Your Mother's Tongue: Book of European Invective" is an interesting book about the same subject.
  - zwp 15y ago
    Hello! I like the hypothesis, I'm sure there must be some research on this. There is a writing style guide written by a well-known English author, Victorian era, that suggests using saxon over romance words for clarity. I feel this is valid (also more concise, more punchy (more consonants)). I thought it was Kipling but perhaps not... somebody help me out?
    - bdr 15y ago
      Was it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barnes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barnes ? "For example, the word "photograph" (from Greek light+writing) would become "sun-print" (from Saxon). Other terms include "wortlore" (botany), "welkinfire" (meteor) and "nipperlings" (forceps)." See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_linguistic_purism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_linguistic_purism
      - bergie 15y ago
        In Finland there is a government agency called Kielitoimisto ("Language bureau"), which has as its mission to keep the language pure from foreign influences. They've recently tuned it down, but I remember a lot of proposals from them in the 90s similar to the ones you listed
        cema 15y ago
        Well, modern Hebrew is still like that, to a large extent.
        jacques_chester 15y ago
        Comparably, the French have L'Académie Française. Stuffed to the roof with curmudgeons who reject all foreign influences -- even from other Francophonic countries. There's cases where Swiss French (counting), Quebecois French (conjugation of many verbs) etc is more logical or more consistent, but the changes are rejected as foreign by the Académie.
        Terretta 15y ago
  - Terretta 15y ago
    I was entertained by the "individual" vs. "man" phrase: the sort of guy These sound like nice simple Anglo Saxon words, but: "sort" – 1200–50; (noun) Middle English < Middle French sorte "guy" – 1300–50; Middle English gye < Old French guie, a guide, derivative of guier to guide You played with these words in several parts of the post, which made it all the more entertaining a read.
- donall 15y ago
  I don't think the validity of the policeman example should taint the "factual veracity" of the entire article. The sociolinguistic ramifications of the Norman invasion are well established and there are a great many examples of synonymous words with class-based connotations. As for the specific policeman example, you are probably right to say that "individual" is used because it is a useful non-offensive abstraction for the various sub-classes of human, but policeman-speak is still well-known for being unnecessarily verbose (from our biased anti-latin perspective as English speakers). Perhaps a better example would be choosing to use verbs like "locate" rather than "find".
  - zwp 15y ago
    As I said in my first post this particular example seemed so stridently wrong that I thought I'd missed something, that there was a level of irony in the article that apparently doesn't exist. > "locate" rather than "find" As it happens... I disagree this example is any better. To locate is to "discover the position" of something; to find is to "meet with or discover by chance" (that's my emphasis, but both are primary definitions from Collins English). Could be it's just hard to meaningfully extrapolate those class-based connotations forwards 1000 years in an enjoyable pop-sci article.
    - jacobolus 15y ago
      All of these synonyms have subtly different connotations. In most uses, however, “locate” and “find” (like the other pairs on the list) can be used interchangeably, and the main difference is which one sounds “fancier” (for instance, “I located my keys” instead of “I found my keys”). Often, multisyllabic french or latinate words are used instead of simpler Saxon words by speakers or writers who are trying, consciously or unconsciously, to sound important; almost as often, in aiming for sophistication they just sound awkward.
  - bsagert 15y ago
    >policeman-speak is still well-known for being unnecessarily verbose Policeman-speak is closer to lawyer-speak because police spend a lot of time writing reports that are subject to cross examination in court. Police and lawyers must communicate clearly (in legal-speak) despite any difference in class.
- tty 15y ago
  >Similarly "smart" (allegedly dumb German word) is derived via German smerzan, Latin mordere, Greek smerdnos (according to my dictionary). What exactly do you mean when you say "derived via German smerzan"? Smerzan and smart have the same origin in common West Germanic, whereas the other two have their origin in common PIE (along with Slavic 'Sm(e)rt' meaning 'death'). If what you meant to say is that the word is derived from Greek smerdnos (via Latin and German), then you're reading your dictionary wrong because those are simply etymologically related words.
  - zwp 15y ago
    This was indeed my interpretation. I read this (second clause) as a linear chronology: "Old english smeortan; related to Old High German smerzan, Latin mordere to bite, Greek smerdnos terrible" Thank you for the correction.
- DasIch 15y ago
  The fascinating thing is that while using the words "intelligent" und "smart" you will be well understood by anyone German you will have a very hard time finding anyone who knows what "smerzan" is supposed to mean.
- ubernostrum 15y ago
  It's about register: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics) A lot of comedy comes from using the "wrong" register for a given situation, and a lot of amusement for English speakers learning German comes from the fact that Germanic languages gave us our informal-register vocabulary (our formal vocabulary came from Greek and Latin by way of French). (thus, for example, a science student giggles a bit at the seemingly-informal "Wasserstoff", sounding as it does like "water stuff", but doesn't bat an eye at "hydrogen", even though the Greek root words mean essentially the same thing)
OpenAmazing 15y ago
Ha ha. From the bottom of his post: "Oh hi there, Hacker News. Someone apparently submitted this and it's doing pretty well. Some sort of HN or reddit flare-up happens with more of my posts than not, and it always has me wanting to find a way to capitalize on it and become some professional writer-philosopher. One with muscles and a serious artist face. Hey, a boy has got to dream. Anyways, I can write stuff. I'm a little bit smart. You should totally hire me or something. kenmyers@gmail.com. Or what if I wrote a book? Would that work? If I've got, like, 140 RSS subscribers, but 50,000 hits a month through sites like HN and reddit, do you think that's enough of a following to get me somewhere? Talk to me." That's how you capitalize on success.
biot 15y ago
> Policemen, charged with high office but often born of a commoner > strain, struggle with sloppy mismatches, calling a suspect > "the individual," in utter subconscious terror of being labeled > the sort of guy who uses the word "man." Or combine that with incorrect terminology such as "the suspect was travelling at a high rate of speed" when they really mean "the suspect was travelling fast". Speed is technically a rate of distance. Rate of speed would be acceleration. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to utilize the commode.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- Natsu 15y ago
  > Speed is technically a rate of distance. Actually, the scalar component of velocity, making it distance per unit of time.
- lurker14 15y ago
  Haha. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rate https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rate says "Rate of speed (velocity), in physics" and then https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rate_of_speed https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rate_of_speed redirects to https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Velocity https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Velocity
shareme 15y ago
Du Gotten Liebe?
keiferski 15y ago
Related (and interesting): A peculiarity perhaps unique to a handful of languages, English included, is that the nouns for meats are commonly different from, and unrelated to, those for the animals from which they are produced, the animal commonly having a Germanic name and the meat having a French-derived one. Examples include: deer and venison; cow and beef; swine/pig and pork; and sheep/lamb and mutton. This is assumed to be a result of the aftermath of the Norman conquest of England, where an Anglo-Norman-speaking elite were the consumers of the meat, produced by lower classes, which happened to be largely Anglo-Saxon[citation needed], though this same duality can also be seen in other languages like French, which did not undergo such linguistic upheaval (e.g. boeuf "beef" vs. vache "cow"). With the exception of beef and pork, the distinction today is gradually becoming less and less pronounced (venison is commonly referred to simply as deer meat, mutton is lamb, and chicken is both the animal and the meat over the more traditional term poultry. (Use of the term mutton, however, remains, especially when referring to the meat of an older sheep, distinct from lamb; and poultry remains when referring to the meat of birds and fowls in general. Use of the term swineflesh for pork, is also widespread, especially in religious contexts) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
- jacobolus 15y ago
  There’s a long rant about this by one of the characters in Ivanhoe. http://books.google.com/books?id=zzQJAAAAQAAJ&dq=ivanhoe&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q=pork&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=zzQJAAAAQAAJ&dq=ivanhoe... "Truly," said Wamba, without stirring from the spot, "I have consulted my legs upon this matter, and they are altogether of opinion, that to carry my gay garments through these sloughs, would be an act of unfriendship to my sovereign person and royal wardrobe; wherefore, Gurth, I advise thee to call off Fangs, and leave the herd to their destiny, which, whether they meet with bands of travelling soldiers, or of outlaws, or of wandering pilgrims, can be little else than to be converted into Normans before morning, to thy no small ease and comfort." "The swine turned Normans to my comfort!" quoth Gurth; "expound that to me, Wamba, for my brain is too dull, and my mind too vexed, to read riddles." "Why, how call you those grunting brutes running about on their four legs?" demanded Wamba. "Swine, fool, swine," said the herd, "every fool knows that." "And swine is good Saxon," said the Jester; "but how call you the sow when she is flayed, and drawn, and quartered, and hung up by the heels, like a traitor?" "Pork," answered the swine-herd. "I am very glad every fool knows that too," said Wamba, "and pork, I think, is good Norman-French; and so when the brute lives, and is in the charge of a Saxon slave, she goes by her Saxon name; but becomes a Norman, and is called pork, when she is carried to the Castle-hall to feast among the nobles; what dost thou think of this, friend Gurth, ha?" "It is but too true doctrine, friend Wamba, however it got into thy fool's pate." "Nay, I can tell you more," said Wamba, in the same tone; "there is old Alderman Ox continues to hold his Saxon epithet, while he is under the charge of serfs and bondsmen such as thou, but becomes Beef, a fiery French gallant, when he arrives before the worshipful jaws that are destined to consume him. Mynheer Calf, too, becomes Monsieur de Veau in the like manner; he is Saxon when he requires tendance, and takes a Norman name when he becomes matter of enjoyment." "By St Dunstan," answered Gurth, "thou speakest but sad truths; little is left to us but the air we breathe, and that appears to have been reserved with much hesitation, solely for the purpose of enabling us to endure the tasks they lay upon our shoulders. The finest and the fattest is for their board; the loveliest is for their couch; the best and bravest supply their foreign masters with soldiers, and whiten distant lands with their bones, leaving few here who have either will or the power to protect the unfortunate Saxon. God's blessing on our master Cedric, he hath done the work of a man in standing in the gap; but Reginald Front-de-Boeuf is coming down to this country in person, and we shall soon see how little Cedric's trouble will avail him.—Here, here," he exclaimed again, raising his voice, "So ho! so ho! well done, Fangs! thou hast them all before thee now, and bring'st them on bravely, lad."
petercooper 15y ago
When the Normans came, they brought French. They enslaved the old German speakers of Britain, and the language of the people who bathed more often was, for centuries to come, Romance. The overarching story is good but to respectfully nitpick, in terms of linguistics, Germanic and German don't mean the same thing. At least, only a little more than Java and JavaScript do. The English were not speaking German prior to 1066 but Old English or Anglo Saxon, a mish-mash of ancient Britannic languages, Latin, Old Norse, and some West Germanic languages. Also, it wasn't "French" that was brought over to England. At least, not in any codified, official sense of the term that we now accept. The Duchy of Normandy was still separate from the Kingdom of France (although Norman was one of the oïl languages) until the 13th century and Norman, as a language, had more Norse influence than other oïl languages due to prior invasions.
- KennethMyers 15y ago
  You're right. I actually said "German" because the word is simpler and it makes for a more sonorous title. But I've also met super-important linguists who in conversation call old Englishes "German" and the Norman language "French".
  - petercooper 15y ago
    Cool. I hadn't noticed that but I can imagine it happening for simplicity's sake, especially among people who "know"! BTW, I definitely wasn't trying to imply you didn't understand the background since you seemed to know what you were talking about but it bristles me to think other people with no linguistic background could be reading "German" and thinking.. ooh, German! Maybe that's just the personality disorder talking though ;-)
  - angus77 15y ago
    I've definitely heard of the language of the Normans referred to as French or Norman French, but I have yet to come across anyone calling Anglo-Saxon German.
- arvinjoar 15y ago
  As a Scandinavian I noticed this, and it is what's keeping me from upvoting this article. Simplification is good, simplification that borders on misinformation is not so good.
mc32 15y ago
This reminds me of Gerrard Winstanley, a Digger, who said, quite eloquently, speaking of the Norman yoke: "Oh, thou City, thou hypocritical City ! Thou blindfold, drowsy England, that sleeps and snorts in the bed of covetousness, awake, awake ! The enemy is upon thy back, he is ready to scale the walls and enter possession, and wilt thou not look out? By, then, of course, it was too late.
gallerytungsten 15y ago
As an amusing side note, the word "hell" in German means "light" (as in the electromagnetic spectrum variety, as opposed to a lack of weight).
- sk5t 15y ago
  This all reminds me of Mark Twain's essay, "The Awful German Language"; he holds a very different view of the German language as lighter and more playful than English.
hussong 15y ago
I'm wondering whether the usage of (allegedly less offensive) Latin terms makes any difference to people who actually know Latin well, like priests.
losethos 15y ago
God says, "fallen delivered openly dangerous restraining disgraced shaggy ungodliness irritate inserted gotten pg Prophet liar Many institution Image cheerful bless boyish brackishness silently Unto piece BOOK tender friend REMEDIES inspecting "
fedd 15y ago
i think the problem is not you using plain words, but for you mentioning the hell. i think in ancient times, mentioning Hell, Helheim, trolls was also only for brave men, and Germanic grandmothers were against it
erikb 15y ago
What does he actually want to say?
jrhorn424 15y ago
This is extremely similar in content to Elliot Engle's book /A Light History of the English Language/ and a lecture he gave semi-regularly at NC State when I was a student there. http://www.amazon.com/Light-History-English-Language-Expanded/dp/B000WQ91UC/ref=sr_1_2 http://www.amazon.com/Light-History-English-Language-Expande...?

180 points by bdr 15y ago

zwp 15y ago

I enjoyed this article although I suspect its factual veracity (oops, err, truth). For one thing LEOs don't say "individual" because they're romance language kowtowers but rather because it's an instance of the largest valid superclass of man/child/woman/girl/boy/teenager/infant/... Similarly, it's not "Sir, please get out of the Porsche 911" but "Sir, please get out of the vehicle". "Vehicle" is factually correct whatever the beliefs of the other party ("this is not just a car!"). Perhaps I'm not smart enough to catch all of the nuances in the article. For example the very first sentence's "grandmother" is splendidly etymologically ambiguous (grossmutter/grandmere), is this intentional? Similarly "smart" (allegedly dumb German word) is derived via German smerzan, Latin mordere, Greek smerdnos (according to my dictionary).

KennethMyers 15y ago
Post author here. You're right about "smart." There are other minor inaccuracies that other people pointed out. The origin of "fuck" isn't clear. Were the anglo-saxons actually enslaved? (I'd say yes. Serfdom/slavery, what's the differece?) I didn't write this thing like a researcher. I wrote it like a daytime applied linguist with a secret passion for his crazy-ass blog. I'll do a rigorous one if people actually want that.
- sophacles 15y ago
  I actually want that... but don't do extra work because I ask nicely -- I will gladly pay for an (e)book on this topic, if it was written at a "smart layman"'s level. I think its fascinating, but not career fascinating, if you know what I mean. I just want to read about these things and maybe be able to impress strangers with random facts that were well researched by some person who knows what he's talking about.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    "Your Mother's Tongue: Book of European Invective" is an interesting book about the same subject.
- zwp 15y ago
  Hello! I like the hypothesis, I'm sure there must be some research on this. There is a writing style guide written by a well-known English author, Victorian era, that suggests using saxon over romance words for clarity. I feel this is valid (also more concise, more punchy (more consonants)). I thought it was Kipling but perhaps not... somebody help me out?
  - bdr 15y ago
    Was it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barnes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barnes ? "For example, the word "photograph" (from Greek light+writing) would become "sun-print" (from Saxon). Other terms include "wortlore" (botany), "welkinfire" (meteor) and "nipperlings" (forceps)." See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_linguistic_purism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_linguistic_purism
    - bergie 15y ago
      In Finland there is a government agency called Kielitoimisto ("Language bureau"), which has as its mission to keep the language pure from foreign influences. They've recently tuned it down, but I remember a lot of proposals from them in the 90s similar to the ones you listed
      - cema 15y ago
        Well, modern Hebrew is still like that, to a large extent.
      - jacques_chester 15y ago
        Comparably, the French have L'Académie Française. Stuffed to the roof with curmudgeons who reject all foreign influences -- even from other Francophonic countries. There's cases where Swiss French (counting), Quebecois French (conjugation of many verbs) etc is more logical or more consistent, but the changes are rejected as foreign by the Académie.
        Terretta 15y ago
- Terretta 15y ago
  I was entertained by the "individual" vs. "man" phrase: the sort of guy These sound like nice simple Anglo Saxon words, but: "sort" – 1200–50; (noun) Middle English < Middle French sorte "guy" – 1300–50; Middle English gye < Old French guie, a guide, derivative of guier to guide You played with these words in several parts of the post, which made it all the more entertaining a read.
donall 15y ago
I don't think the validity of the policeman example should taint the "factual veracity" of the entire article. The sociolinguistic ramifications of the Norman invasion are well established and there are a great many examples of synonymous words with class-based connotations. As for the specific policeman example, you are probably right to say that "individual" is used because it is a useful non-offensive abstraction for the various sub-classes of human, but policeman-speak is still well-known for being unnecessarily verbose (from our biased anti-latin perspective as English speakers). Perhaps a better example would be choosing to use verbs like "locate" rather than "find".
- zwp 15y ago
  As I said in my first post this particular example seemed so stridently wrong that I thought I'd missed something, that there was a level of irony in the article that apparently doesn't exist. > "locate" rather than "find" As it happens... I disagree this example is any better. To locate is to "discover the position" of something; to find is to "meet with or discover by chance" (that's my emphasis, but both are primary definitions from Collins English). Could be it's just hard to meaningfully extrapolate those class-based connotations forwards 1000 years in an enjoyable pop-sci article.
  - jacobolus 15y ago
    All of these synonyms have subtly different connotations. In most uses, however, “locate” and “find” (like the other pairs on the list) can be used interchangeably, and the main difference is which one sounds “fancier” (for instance, “I located my keys” instead of “I found my keys”). Often, multisyllabic french or latinate words are used instead of simpler Saxon words by speakers or writers who are trying, consciously or unconsciously, to sound important; almost as often, in aiming for sophistication they just sound awkward.
- bsagert 15y ago
  >policeman-speak is still well-known for being unnecessarily verbose Policeman-speak is closer to lawyer-speak because police spend a lot of time writing reports that are subject to cross examination in court. Police and lawyers must communicate clearly (in legal-speak) despite any difference in class.
tty 15y ago
>Similarly "smart" (allegedly dumb German word) is derived via German smerzan, Latin mordere, Greek smerdnos (according to my dictionary). What exactly do you mean when you say "derived via German smerzan"? Smerzan and smart have the same origin in common West Germanic, whereas the other two have their origin in common PIE (along with Slavic 'Sm(e)rt' meaning 'death'). If what you meant to say is that the word is derived from Greek smerdnos (via Latin and German), then you're reading your dictionary wrong because those are simply etymologically related words.
- zwp 15y ago
  This was indeed my interpretation. I read this (second clause) as a linear chronology: "Old english smeortan; related to Old High German smerzan, Latin mordere to bite, Greek smerdnos terrible" Thank you for the correction.
DasIch 15y ago
The fascinating thing is that while using the words "intelligent" und "smart" you will be well understood by anyone German you will have a very hard time finding anyone who knows what "smerzan" is supposed to mean.
ubernostrum 15y ago
It's about register: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics) A lot of comedy comes from using the "wrong" register for a given situation, and a lot of amusement for English speakers learning German comes from the fact that Germanic languages gave us our informal-register vocabulary (our formal vocabulary came from Greek and Latin by way of French). (thus, for example, a science student giggles a bit at the seemingly-informal "Wasserstoff", sounding as it does like "water stuff", but doesn't bat an eye at "hydrogen", even though the Greek root words mean essentially the same thing)

OpenAmazing 15y ago

Ha ha. From the bottom of his post: "Oh hi there, Hacker News. Someone apparently submitted this and it's doing pretty well. Some sort of HN or reddit flare-up happens with more of my posts than not, and it always has me wanting to find a way to capitalize on it and become some professional writer-philosopher. One with muscles and a serious artist face. Hey, a boy has got to dream. Anyways, I can write stuff. I'm a little bit smart. You should totally hire me or something. kenmyers@gmail.com. Or what if I wrote a book? Would that work? If I've got, like, 140 RSS subscribers, but 50,000 hits a month through sites like HN and reddit, do you think that's enough of a following to get me somewhere? Talk to me." That's how you capitalize on success.

biot 15y ago

> Policemen, charged with high office but often born of a commoner > strain, struggle with sloppy mismatches, calling a suspect > "the individual," in utter subconscious terror of being labeled > the sort of guy who uses the word "man." Or combine that with incorrect terminology such as "the suspect was travelling at a high rate of speed" when they really mean "the suspect was travelling fast". Speed is technically a rate of distance. Rate of speed would be acceleration. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to utilize the commode.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Natsu 15y ago
> Speed is technically a rate of distance. Actually, the scalar component of velocity, making it distance per unit of time.
lurker14 15y ago
Haha. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rate https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rate says "Rate of speed (velocity), in physics" and then https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rate_of_speed https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rate_of_speed redirects to https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Velocity https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Velocity

shareme 15y ago

Du Gotten Liebe?

keiferski 15y ago

Related (and interesting): A peculiarity perhaps unique to a handful of languages, English included, is that the nouns for meats are commonly different from, and unrelated to, those for the animals from which they are produced, the animal commonly having a Germanic name and the meat having a French-derived one. Examples include: deer and venison; cow and beef; swine/pig and pork; and sheep/lamb and mutton. This is assumed to be a result of the aftermath of the Norman conquest of England, where an Anglo-Norman-speaking elite were the consumers of the meat, produced by lower classes, which happened to be largely Anglo-Saxon[citation needed], though this same duality can also be seen in other languages like French, which did not undergo such linguistic upheaval (e.g. boeuf "beef" vs. vache "cow"). With the exception of beef and pork, the distinction today is gradually becoming less and less pronounced (venison is commonly referred to simply as deer meat, mutton is lamb, and chicken is both the animal and the meat over the more traditional term poultry. (Use of the term mutton, however, remains, especially when referring to the meat of an older sheep, distinct from lamb; and poultry remains when referring to the meat of birds and fowls in general. Use of the term swineflesh for pork, is also widespread, especially in religious contexts) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

jacobolus 15y ago
There’s a long rant about this by one of the characters in Ivanhoe. http://books.google.com/books?id=zzQJAAAAQAAJ&dq=ivanhoe&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q=pork&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=zzQJAAAAQAAJ&dq=ivanhoe... "Truly," said Wamba, without stirring from the spot, "I have consulted my legs upon this matter, and they are altogether of opinion, that to carry my gay garments through these sloughs, would be an act of unfriendship to my sovereign person and royal wardrobe; wherefore, Gurth, I advise thee to call off Fangs, and leave the herd to their destiny, which, whether they meet with bands of travelling soldiers, or of outlaws, or of wandering pilgrims, can be little else than to be converted into Normans before morning, to thy no small ease and comfort." "The swine turned Normans to my comfort!" quoth Gurth; "expound that to me, Wamba, for my brain is too dull, and my mind too vexed, to read riddles." "Why, how call you those grunting brutes running about on their four legs?" demanded Wamba. "Swine, fool, swine," said the herd, "every fool knows that." "And swine is good Saxon," said the Jester; "but how call you the sow when she is flayed, and drawn, and quartered, and hung up by the heels, like a traitor?" "Pork," answered the swine-herd. "I am very glad every fool knows that too," said Wamba, "and pork, I think, is good Norman-French; and so when the brute lives, and is in the charge of a Saxon slave, she goes by her Saxon name; but becomes a Norman, and is called pork, when she is carried to the Castle-hall to feast among the nobles; what dost thou think of this, friend Gurth, ha?" "It is but too true doctrine, friend Wamba, however it got into thy fool's pate." "Nay, I can tell you more," said Wamba, in the same tone; "there is old Alderman Ox continues to hold his Saxon epithet, while he is under the charge of serfs and bondsmen such as thou, but becomes Beef, a fiery French gallant, when he arrives before the worshipful jaws that are destined to consume him. Mynheer Calf, too, becomes Monsieur de Veau in the like manner; he is Saxon when he requires tendance, and takes a Norman name when he becomes matter of enjoyment." "By St Dunstan," answered Gurth, "thou speakest but sad truths; little is left to us but the air we breathe, and that appears to have been reserved with much hesitation, solely for the purpose of enabling us to endure the tasks they lay upon our shoulders. The finest and the fattest is for their board; the loveliest is for their couch; the best and bravest supply their foreign masters with soldiers, and whiten distant lands with their bones, leaving few here who have either will or the power to protect the unfortunate Saxon. God's blessing on our master Cedric, he hath done the work of a man in standing in the gap; but Reginald Front-de-Boeuf is coming down to this country in person, and we shall soon see how little Cedric's trouble will avail him.—Here, here," he exclaimed again, raising his voice, "So ho! so ho! well done, Fangs! thou hast them all before thee now, and bring'st them on bravely, lad."

petercooper 15y ago

When the Normans came, they brought French. They enslaved the old German speakers of Britain, and the language of the people who bathed more often was, for centuries to come, Romance. The overarching story is good but to respectfully nitpick, in terms of linguistics, Germanic and German don't mean the same thing. At least, only a little more than Java and JavaScript do. The English were not speaking German prior to 1066 but Old English or Anglo Saxon, a mish-mash of ancient Britannic languages, Latin, Old Norse, and some West Germanic languages. Also, it wasn't "French" that was brought over to England. At least, not in any codified, official sense of the term that we now accept. The Duchy of Normandy was still separate from the Kingdom of France (although Norman was one of the oïl languages) until the 13th century and Norman, as a language, had more Norse influence than other oïl languages due to prior invasions.

KennethMyers 15y ago
You're right. I actually said "German" because the word is simpler and it makes for a more sonorous title. But I've also met super-important linguists who in conversation call old Englishes "German" and the Norman language "French".
- petercooper 15y ago
  Cool. I hadn't noticed that but I can imagine it happening for simplicity's sake, especially among people who "know"! BTW, I definitely wasn't trying to imply you didn't understand the background since you seemed to know what you were talking about but it bristles me to think other people with no linguistic background could be reading "German" and thinking.. ooh, German! Maybe that's just the personality disorder talking though ;-)
- angus77 15y ago
  I've definitely heard of the language of the Normans referred to as French or Norman French, but I have yet to come across anyone calling Anglo-Saxon German.
arvinjoar 15y ago
As a Scandinavian I noticed this, and it is what's keeping me from upvoting this article. Simplification is good, simplification that borders on misinformation is not so good.

mc32 15y ago

This reminds me of Gerrard Winstanley, a Digger, who said, quite eloquently, speaking of the Norman yoke: "Oh, thou City, thou hypocritical City ! Thou blindfold, drowsy England, that sleeps and snorts in the bed of covetousness, awake, awake ! The enemy is upon thy back, he is ready to scale the walls and enter possession, and wilt thou not look out? By, then, of course, it was too late.

gallerytungsten 15y ago

As an amusing side note, the word "hell" in German means "light" (as in the electromagnetic spectrum variety, as opposed to a lack of weight).

sk5t 15y ago
This all reminds me of Mark Twain's essay, "The Awful German Language"; he holds a very different view of the German language as lighter and more playful than English.

hussong 15y ago

I'm wondering whether the usage of (allegedly less offensive) Latin terms makes any difference to people who actually know Latin well, like priests.

losethos 15y ago

God says, "fallen delivered openly dangerous restraining disgraced shaggy ungodliness irritate inserted gotten pg Prophet liar Many institution Image cheerful bless boyish brackishness silently Unto piece BOOK tender friend REMEDIES inspecting "

fedd 15y ago

i think the problem is not you using plain words, but for you mentioning the hell. i think in ancient times, mentioning Hell, Helheim, trolls was also only for brave men, and Germanic grandmothers were against it

erikb 15y ago

What does he actually want to say?

jrhorn424 15y ago

This is extremely similar in content to Elliot Engle's book /A Light History of the English Language/ and a lecture he gave semi-regularly at NC State when I was a student there. http://www.amazon.com/Light-History-English-Language-Expanded/dp/B000WQ91UC/ref=sr_1_2 http://www.amazon.com/Light-History-English-Language-Expande...?