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India's living dead
- smnrchrds 5y agoLest you think this is unique to India, here is a similar story from France: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/french-woman-spends-three-years-trying-to-prove-she-is-not-dead https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/french-woman-s...
- cmeacham98 5y agoI'm sure this can (and does) happen basically anywhere, but according to this article one state in India alone has 40k ""dead"" people, so the scale is way different.
- quadrifoliate 5y ago> I'm sure this can (and does) happen basically anywhere, but according to this article one state in India alone has 40k "dead" people, so the scale is way different. India has about 20 times the population of France. So if it's normal for something to happen to 2k people in France, then that alone scales up to 40k people in India.
- Retr0id 5y agoUttar Pradesh has a population of "only" 240M, about 3.5x that of France.
- Cederfjard 5y agoIs there any indication that there are two thousand cases in France, though? So far in this discussion we’ve seen evidence of one.
- quadrifoliate 5y agoNo, it's certainly a much bigger problem in India than France. The intent was just to emphasize that “just one state in India” is not a small / low population place, but comparable to larger European countries. I did that pretty badly though. To point out another mistake I made, I forgot to compare the population of the state alone v/s France – which is 3.5x, not 20x (as another commenter says [1]). So the equivalent case for France would be ~10k such cases, which would hopefully be reported about more widely. -------------------------------------------- [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28299098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28299098
- Jyaif 5y agoIn this case, the women allegedly played dead to avoid paying a 14000 euros judgment against her.
- ArnoVW 5y agoThe article says that when the case against her didn't pan out for the litigant, they launched a new case, stating that this time they were attacking her estate as she was dead. How this statement in court filings resulted in her being declared dead the article does not state. I don't remember reading anywhere that she was at fault, for any of it.
- tasogare 5y agoThe article speaks of 40,000 cases in just one Indian state vs one case in France. It's really not comparable. That being said the French administration is particularly infuriating and being locked out of everything because "opening bank account requires a proof of residence" coupled to "you need a check (thus bank account) to get your university dormitory room" can definitely happens. And while honest citizens are easily screwed it doesn't even remotely stop fraud which is massive, with a billion of euros scammed out of the wealthfare every year (https://www.google.fr/amp/s/lexpansion.lexpress.fr/actualite-economique/ces-trois-chiffres-qui-illustrent-l-ampleur-de-la-fraude-sociale-en-france_2134319.amp.html https://www.google.fr/amp/s/lexpansion.lexpress.fr/actualite...)
- Bayart 5y agoIn France the problem with fraud and excess registrations has got to do with data segregation. Files can't legally be cross-referenced between the ID system, the fiscal system, the healthcare system and so on. That leads to a lot of cruft. In Japan they've got tons of dead people still legally alive, it's a pretty common issue. As for bank accounts, you need KYC everywhere, at least in Europe. I don't see how France is specifically problematic in that respect.
- seszett 5y agoI just want to say that these are unrelated: opening a bank account doesn't actually require a proof of residence in France by law, it's the banks themselves that often require it (but when you move abroad they are generally happy to update your address without proof), needing a check for renting is absolutely infuriating but also not a legal requirement, only something private landlords usually ask (publicly subsided housing and student accommodation organisations that regularly see foreign students generally allow other means of guarantee). So these are entirely problems with private actors, not the French administration - you will find that the French administration is often very helpful when you need to pay things to them, most means of payment are possible, foreign credit cards are no problem for example, and they even take American Express for paying fines. And wealthfare fraud is not conducted with checks, although it might require false proofs of residence.
- Borrible 5y agoSo people with weak morals and an opportunity do take their chance and exploit weak people in weak jurisdictions? And the phenomenon is self-amplifying because it's not much done about it? Who would have thought? Shocking! Shocking I tell ya! On the other hand, the living dead are probably the lucky ones. Did you happen to have heard about the rising senicide problem in southern India? https://journals.macewan.ca/crossingborders/article/view/1994 https://journals.macewan.ca/crossingborders/article/view/199... Renal failure from a strict coconut water diet. Sneaky bastards... Allthough that maybe an urban legend. Who knows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalaikoothal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalaikoothal
- nicbou 5y agoThis was a well-written article, and a very interesting read. It must be horrible to have a situation you have no control in destroy your life, then consume you until (and if) it is solved.
- ackbar03 5y ago>Finally, in desperation, he decided to break the law by kidnapping his uncle's child. He was hoping the police would arrest him and in doing so be forced to accept that he was alive - after all, you can't arrest a dead man. But the police realised what he was up to and refused to get involved. Why does this sound like some sort of invincibility superpower? These people should form a league of the undead and go rob banks or something.
- probably_wrong 5y agoIt's only a superpower in theory. In practice, the IRS has sued people for benefits collected from a not-really-dead person [1] without restoring that person to the land of the living. And then there's a case where a supposedly-dead person was given the death penalty [2]. If the state has an incentive to punish you, it will find a way. [1] https://loweringthebar.net/2014/08/feds-say-legally-dead-is-slightly-alive.html https://loweringthebar.net/2014/08/feds-say-legally-dead-is-... [2] https://loweringthebar.net/2014/09/legally-dead-man-sentenced-to-be-actually-dead.html https://loweringthebar.net/2014/09/legally-dead-man-sentence...
- bryanrasmussen 5y agoobviously the superpower would be functioning in India - and just as obviously at some point you would do something big enough that they would have to do something about it. Probably the something like what was done in the movie Brazil when someone was legally dead but still alive.
- candiodari 5y agoWhy assume India's government is any different from any other. There is no India's government. There's 100000 government departments that barely work together. If you get one, responsible for enforcing the law, to punish you it is not going to make another department realize and admit its mistake and undo what they've done. It's just not. Not in the US. Not in France. Not in India.
- ShroudedNight 5y agoI wonder how this kind of fraud will interact with the widespread use of biometrics to assert identity.
- known 5y agoSometimes a divided country is better than a hopeless one https://www.change.org/p/300-million-india-s-untouchables https://www.change.org/p/300-million-india-s-untouchables
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoOn the bright side. Dead people don't pay taxes.
- dspillett 5y agoUnfortunately they may have trouble getting employment to have any income to not pay taxes on, and a long list of other problems.
- joshuaissac 5y agoAbout 85-93% of employees in India are in the informal sector,[1] where the employer does not care about whether the employee is legally dead, and taxes are not paid either way. 1. https://www.businesstoday.in/jobs/story/labour-law-reforms-no-one-knows-actual-size-india-informal-workforce-not-even-govt-214490-2019-07-15 https://www.businesstoday.in/jobs/story/labour-law-reforms-n...
- BeFlatXIII 5y agoA paradise for a free labor market. I hope the predominance of informal employment continues even as India continues to move toward a (post-)industrial economy.
- spywaregorilla 5y agoI wonder if Indian laborers share your view that their economic system is a paradise?
- qart 5y agoThey don't pay income tax. They still have to pay all the other kinds of tax like sales, service, etc.
- lostlogin 5y agoAlso most the opposite of this used to happen (and maybe still does?) in New Zealand - using birth certificates from dead people to generate an identity. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/benefit-fraud-tops-23m-in-record-year/6GEWVGFV2PC6OW7CYHSLYPRIGU/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/benefit-fraud-tops-23m-in-reco...
- firefoxd 5y agoCatch-22 is starting to sound less like a comedy these days. Probably one of the funniest chapters when everyone is trying to explain to Doc Daneeka that he is dead. I imagine it is no fun in real life. The more you try to prove you are who you say you are, the more you sound like a fraud. How do you prove you are you, when every evidence you provide is considered falsified.
- CTDOCodebases 5y agoThis reminds me of a Defcon talk.[0] In Australia before a certain date the states/feds didn't keep a record of your face if you got a licence/proof of age card. If you find yourself in this position all that is required is non photo id and a statutory declaration signed by friend to authenticate your identity. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FdHq3WfJgs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FdHq3WfJgs
- Wronnay 5y agoIt sounds like it is too easy in India to declare someone dead.
- sumedh 5y agoYou just have to bribe someone in the govt and get the death certificate.
- vishnugupta 5y agoYou just need a piece of paper from a crematorium saying they buried such and such a person. Crematorium workers don’t earn much so if you bribe them sufficiently you will get it. You use it to apply for death certificate. And that’s about it. First hand experience. I think aadhaar card copy is needed but it’s not difficult to obtain especially if you know the person.
- raghavbali 5y agoThere was a recent Hindi/Bollywood movie on the same subject showcasing the plight of the living dead. Kaagaz (Hindi for Paper): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaagaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaagaz
- la6471 5y agoThis is a really old article
- glitchcrab 5y agoIt was published 6 days ago. Unless you mean the issue the article is discussing is old?
- knorker 5y agoI hear that in Sweden it's not possible to not notice that "you're dead". All your bank accounts and other things are quickly closed. And since Sweden has a war on cash, and is a highly digital society, you will definitely notice. You may not even be able to get a library card, if your ID number is declared "invalid". It's apparently very rare. But have enough people, and eventually someone will make a mistake and declare the wrong person dead.
- valdiorn 5y agosame in Iceland. When my dad (actually) died, everything in his life ground to an instant halt. As soon as he was registered as deceased in the government system, bank accounts froze, we automatically got letters from a bunch of agencies explaining that they got an update on his status, and in many cases those letters had instructions for next of kin to resolve matters, like collecting life insurance, etc. The biggest hassle we faced, which wasn't that big really, was going to the bank, with our passports and the death certificate, and asking to have the money transferred to my mom's account. His current bank was even able to contact other banks and we found that he had a couple of old accounts in other banks that we didn't know about. They gave us documents to go there and get the remaining balanced moved. Getting his online accounts sorted, however, was a different matter. Please leave some kind of "in case I'm dead" envelope for your next of kin with passwords and a description of your digital footprint. It was incredibly frustrating trying to get access to his photo albums and documents on G Drive, for example. I managed to dig out a password at the end, but it took me weeks of trying all sorts of things.
- mrVentures 5y agoWhoa, how'd you find the password?
- ianai 5y agoThat’s not the point of TFA! They’re talking about people who get victimized by people who convince the state that they’re dead when they’re not.
- 5y ago
- noisy_boy 5y ago> Shaina NC, spokeswoman for the governing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), told the BBC that the current government has been very diligent in enforcing legislation to tackle corruption. > "In a country as large and diverse as India you could have a few stray cases which do come up time and again, but the majority is insulated by the good governance of the Prime Minister, Narendra Modi," she says. God the sycophancy of these politicians knows no depths. There is more air in outer space than these people have shame.
- rebuilder 5y agoI was about to comment on that precise quote. Not a good sign of the political culture, one hopes it's an isolated incident. I mean, this sounds like something an official from North Korea might say.
- anshumankmr 5y agoThis is what happens when corruption is systemic in a country.
- vishnugupta 5y agoThis is a result of pervasive and systemic corruption. There’s a dark comedy movie in which a bank officer takes out an agricultural loan (for digging water well) in a victim’s name. Of course the water well exists only on paper and money is promptly pocketed by the banker. After a few years government appointed loan collectors knock on the victims door. He is flabbergasted and seeks an educated well wisher’s help. He comes up with a brilliant plan. The victim files a police complaint that his water well has been stolen. Hilarity ensues! I don’t recall how it ends though.
- srean 5y agoIf I remember correctly the person who signed the papers for the well inspection was charged. Apparently the fines were higher because of the way the complaint was posed, it became a criminal case (of well theft) rather than a civil case.
- refracture 5y ago>..he still hosts, every year, a re-birthday party, with guests sitting round a large beautiful cake. As the knife slices into the intricate icing it becomes clear to his guests that it's just a decorated cardboard box - a gimmick. >"Inside it's totally hollow. Some government officials are like that too - vacuous and unjust,".. That symbolism is absolutely savage and beautiful.
- bicepjai 5y agoThere is a Bollywood movie about this name kaagaz. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt9569610/?ref_=m_nm_knf_act_i2 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt9569610/?ref_=m_nm_knf_act_i2
- a11r 5y ago> He added the suffix mritak - meaning "the late" - to his name, becoming "the late Lal Bihari", .... But it wasn't enough to change his situation. I really liked this man's sense of humor.
- crossroadsguy 5y agoAs someone from here this news doesn't even bother me. I mean really not. On a scale of "nothing" to "serious" aspects of corruptions and everything else in this country I see this at "comfortable". That is why whenever something seemingly Kafkaesque is mentioned from Western world my reaction ranges from more offensive "Weaklings!" to less offensive "Ah, first world problems!" :) And that, maybe, tells the state and scale of things here. Been so for years, decades and it's getting worse every year.
- Marwari 5y agoThere is a movie on this, Kaagaz. Pankaj Tripathi is the actor. The situation is very true and I have heard this from many of friends that there relatives did these to snatched piece of land from there immediate brothers and sisters.
- accurrent 5y agoProperty laws in UP are a nightmare. There are all sorts of laws that allow land mafias to seize property at will. I recently had a family member who passed away (for real) but while going through the paperwork I reallized there are so many loopholes and opportunities for land mafia to essentially claim the land as their own that I cant imagine what itd be like of one of your family members claimed you're dead. Quite frankly I feel like there is no concept of land ownership there unless you are physically present to enforce it yourself.