4 ms·

I don't think that's a conspiracy. Motivations there, however misplaced they may be, are quite clear.

by padiyar83 5y ago

asplake 5y ago
Groups of people deliberately creating and spreading disinformation is by any sensible definition a conspiracy
- notacoward 5y ago
  Do you also believe that correlation implies causation? Because it's practically the same thing. A conspiracy requires that people conspire, i.e. coordinate. Correlated action is entirely possible without conspiracy, as is evident during any traffic jam or holiday shopping rush.
- luckylion 5y ago
  No, it would be a conspiracy only they conspired to do so. I don't think that's the case with most of them. There are a lot of movements coming from different backgrounds, believing in different things that are meeting at "it's not real, don't get vaccinated". The Bill-Gates-Wants-To-Kill-Us-people aren't conspiring with the Big-Pharma-Wants-A-Perpetual-Vaccine-Business-People, they just happen to come to the same conclusion ("don't do it"). From what little exposure I had to them, I think they're honest in their ideas. I believe they're wrong on most counts, but I don't think they're sitting at home scheming how to fool the masses. I'm sure there are some who seek to influence public opinion by spreading false narratives, but the large majority seems to just have lost pretty much all trust in Western governments and looks for alternative theories that explain the state of the world.
  - dTal 5y ago
    I think you've made a category error. We're not talking about the lost schmucks who've bought into this claptrap - we're talking about whose bright idea it was in the first place, and who's making an effort to spread it. Someone is providing those "alternative theories". You dig around a little and you find dubiously funded websites and media outlets pushing this stuff, as well as the more unsavory elements of media we call "mainstream". It's not nearly as organic as it seems, and we shouldn't let the bad actors hide behind social media as the scapegoat. "Astroturfing" is not new. So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government?
    - aww_dang 5y ago
      >So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government? The public at large if it results in more critical thinking, greater liberty or accountability.
      - notacoward 5y ago
        Expecting such an outcome is starkly irrational. Its exact opposite is far more likely, as evidenced by the fact that we're already well down exactly that road to exactly that destination.
      - dTal 5y ago
        Why on earth would it? The government is the engine of social cooperation. Losing faith in it puts you on the road away from civilization, not towards.
      - edmundsauto 5y ago
        If I look at the groups in America who appear to have lost faith in their government, I see a lot of groups - Proud Boys, antivaxxers, antimaskers, anti-CDC people - who could not be remotely categorized as critical thinkers. Their behaviors have caused a longer loss in personal liberty because the pandemic continues. And, to look at the Capitol insurrectionists - there's not much accountability. I just don't think there's much evidence that losing faith in government leads to any of those benefits. And my experience tells me that it does the opposite.
    - luckylion 5y ago
      > Someone is providing those "alternative theories". I'm not sure they are. I mean, sure, for some things, there's likely someone somewhere making it up, but others just come to live by themselves. A lot of them remind me of the preppers. They also have plenty of scenarios and end up in similar places on practical questions. And companies around that also were created or took up some of the content to market to them. This might be the same here: websites trying to attract these people for other reasons instead of those websites being the source of the ideas. Since a lot of it is happening online, I guess it should theoretically be/have been visible, do you know of any reports that trace it back to those who created the different conspiracy theories?
blitzar 5y ago
Bill Gates along with Soros the Rothschilds and associated Jews have created a fake global pandemic. The intention is to crash the global economy so they can force everyone into a Socialist, Globalist mono state, flooding our country with immigrants. As part of the fear they have also gotten to finally enact their plan to reduce the world population by sterilizing them with a vaccine that also contains 5g mind-control chips, the receivers of which are the real thing that are making people sick not Covid. Oh and they are going to rape all the children too. You dont think it counts as a conspiracy?
- aww_dang 5y ago
  I think that's an odious and disgusting way to mischaracterize all concerns as nonsense.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    If your concern is that COVID is fake and it is a jewish conspiracy to inject dangerous vaccines with 5G mind control chips and you want me to take it seriously; then politely go fuck yourself. If you have other concerns, happy to hear them, I never suggested anything to the contrary, you read what you wanted to read in my comment, and perhaps touched a raw nerve as it overlaps with your beliefs.
    - aww_dang 5y ago
      I've observed this frequently on this site and elsewhere. Dissent is pejoratively associated with flat-earth, antisemitism and other nonsense. As a mainstream narrative, it is an effective way to shut down the discussion. Perhaps some might even call that a disinformation conspiracy.
      - blitzar 5y ago
        I am not sure which is the cause and effect, brain control 5G chips were the work of Bill Gates (who as far as I know is not of the Jewish faith) and are outlandish enough. As if to 'prove' these claims are possible and indeed real, gravitas is added to the claim by saying it was in conjunction with the Rothschilds and the Soros Foundation. It did not require me to associate an entire religion with the 'theory', it's in the theory itself, as a cornerstone of supposed proof. The conversation gets shut down at the retarded assertion that a fake virus was invented in order to inject the population of the world with a brain control device operating, very specifically, on the 5G spectrum. The phenomenon you are really observing is that stupid people are pejoratively associated with stupid people, especially when they cobble together stupid broad statements like 'all the astronauts and satellites are paid off by the deep state to perpetuate the lie that the earth is round' or 'just ask any Jew and they will confirm they were all told not to go to New York on 9/11'.

I don't think that's a conspiracy. Motivations there, however misplaced they may be, are quite clear.

asplake 5y ago

Groups of people deliberately creating and spreading disinformation is by any sensible definition a conspiracy

notacoward 5y ago
Do you also believe that correlation implies causation? Because it's practically the same thing. A conspiracy requires that people conspire, i.e. coordinate. Correlated action is entirely possible without conspiracy, as is evident during any traffic jam or holiday shopping rush.
luckylion 5y ago
No, it would be a conspiracy only they conspired to do so. I don't think that's the case with most of them. There are a lot of movements coming from different backgrounds, believing in different things that are meeting at "it's not real, don't get vaccinated". The Bill-Gates-Wants-To-Kill-Us-people aren't conspiring with the Big-Pharma-Wants-A-Perpetual-Vaccine-Business-People, they just happen to come to the same conclusion ("don't do it"). From what little exposure I had to them, I think they're honest in their ideas. I believe they're wrong on most counts, but I don't think they're sitting at home scheming how to fool the masses. I'm sure there are some who seek to influence public opinion by spreading false narratives, but the large majority seems to just have lost pretty much all trust in Western governments and looks for alternative theories that explain the state of the world.
- dTal 5y ago
  I think you've made a category error. We're not talking about the lost schmucks who've bought into this claptrap - we're talking about whose bright idea it was in the first place, and who's making an effort to spread it. Someone is providing those "alternative theories". You dig around a little and you find dubiously funded websites and media outlets pushing this stuff, as well as the more unsavory elements of media we call "mainstream". It's not nearly as organic as it seems, and we shouldn't let the bad actors hide behind social media as the scapegoat. "Astroturfing" is not new. So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government?
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    >So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government? The public at large if it results in more critical thinking, greater liberty or accountability.
    - notacoward 5y ago
      Expecting such an outcome is starkly irrational. Its exact opposite is far more likely, as evidenced by the fact that we're already well down exactly that road to exactly that destination.
    - dTal 5y ago
      Why on earth would it? The government is the engine of social cooperation. Losing faith in it puts you on the road away from civilization, not towards.
    - edmundsauto 5y ago
      If I look at the groups in America who appear to have lost faith in their government, I see a lot of groups - Proud Boys, antivaxxers, antimaskers, anti-CDC people - who could not be remotely categorized as critical thinkers. Their behaviors have caused a longer loss in personal liberty because the pandemic continues. And, to look at the Capitol insurrectionists - there's not much accountability. I just don't think there's much evidence that losing faith in government leads to any of those benefits. And my experience tells me that it does the opposite.
  - luckylion 5y ago
    > Someone is providing those "alternative theories". I'm not sure they are. I mean, sure, for some things, there's likely someone somewhere making it up, but others just come to live by themselves. A lot of them remind me of the preppers. They also have plenty of scenarios and end up in similar places on practical questions. And companies around that also were created or took up some of the content to market to them. This might be the same here: websites trying to attract these people for other reasons instead of those websites being the source of the ideas. Since a lot of it is happening online, I guess it should theoretically be/have been visible, do you know of any reports that trace it back to those who created the different conspiracy theories?

blitzar 5y ago

Bill Gates along with Soros the Rothschilds and associated Jews have created a fake global pandemic. The intention is to crash the global economy so they can force everyone into a Socialist, Globalist mono state, flooding our country with immigrants. As part of the fear they have also gotten to finally enact their plan to reduce the world population by sterilizing them with a vaccine that also contains 5g mind-control chips, the receivers of which are the real thing that are making people sick not Covid. Oh and they are going to rape all the children too. You dont think it counts as a conspiracy?

aww_dang 5y ago
I think that's an odious and disgusting way to mischaracterize all concerns as nonsense.
- blitzar 5y ago
  If your concern is that COVID is fake and it is a jewish conspiracy to inject dangerous vaccines with 5G mind control chips and you want me to take it seriously; then politely go fuck yourself. If you have other concerns, happy to hear them, I never suggested anything to the contrary, you read what you wanted to read in my comment, and perhaps touched a raw nerve as it overlaps with your beliefs.
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    I've observed this frequently on this site and elsewhere. Dissent is pejoratively associated with flat-earth, antisemitism and other nonsense. As a mainstream narrative, it is an effective way to shut down the discussion. Perhaps some might even call that a disinformation conspiracy.
    - blitzar 5y ago
      I am not sure which is the cause and effect, brain control 5G chips were the work of Bill Gates (who as far as I know is not of the Jewish faith) and are outlandish enough. As if to 'prove' these claims are possible and indeed real, gravitas is added to the claim by saying it was in conjunction with the Rothschilds and the Soros Foundation. It did not require me to associate an entire religion with the 'theory', it's in the theory itself, as a cornerstone of supposed proof. The conversation gets shut down at the retarded assertion that a fake virus was invented in order to inject the population of the world with a brain control device operating, very specifically, on the 5G spectrum. The phenomenon you are really observing is that stupid people are pejoratively associated with stupid people, especially when they cobble together stupid broad statements like 'all the astronauts and satellites are paid off by the deep state to perpetuate the lie that the earth is round' or 'just ask any Jew and they will confirm they were all told not to go to New York on 9/11'.