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If you want to chase a conspiracy that actually matters, go find out who is pushing the narrative that COVID is fake and vaccines are dangerous. That conspiracy

If you want to chase a conspiracy that actually matters, go find out who is pushing the narrative that COVID is fake and vaccines are dangerous. That conspiracy is literally killing thousands of people.

padiyar83 5y ago
I don't think that's a conspiracy. Motivations there, however misplaced they may be, are quite clear.
- asplake 5y ago
  Groups of people deliberately creating and spreading disinformation is by any sensible definition a conspiracy
  - notacoward 5y ago
    Do you also believe that correlation implies causation? Because it's practically the same thing. A conspiracy requires that people conspire, i.e. coordinate. Correlated action is entirely possible without conspiracy, as is evident during any traffic jam or holiday shopping rush.
  - luckylion 5y ago
    No, it would be a conspiracy only they conspired to do so. I don't think that's the case with most of them. There are a lot of movements coming from different backgrounds, believing in different things that are meeting at "it's not real, don't get vaccinated". The Bill-Gates-Wants-To-Kill-Us-people aren't conspiring with the Big-Pharma-Wants-A-Perpetual-Vaccine-Business-People, they just happen to come to the same conclusion ("don't do it"). From what little exposure I had to them, I think they're honest in their ideas. I believe they're wrong on most counts, but I don't think they're sitting at home scheming how to fool the masses. I'm sure there are some who seek to influence public opinion by spreading false narratives, but the large majority seems to just have lost pretty much all trust in Western governments and looks for alternative theories that explain the state of the world.
    - dTal 5y ago
      I think you've made a category error. We're not talking about the lost schmucks who've bought into this claptrap - we're talking about whose bright idea it was in the first place, and who's making an effort to spread it. Someone is providing those "alternative theories". You dig around a little and you find dubiously funded websites and media outlets pushing this stuff, as well as the more unsavory elements of media we call "mainstream". It's not nearly as organic as it seems, and we shouldn't let the bad actors hide behind social media as the scapegoat. "Astroturfing" is not new. So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government?
      - aww_dang 5y ago
        >So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government? The public at large if it results in more critical thinking, greater liberty or accountability.
        notacoward 5y ago
        Expecting such an outcome is starkly irrational. Its exact opposite is far more likely, as evidenced by the fact that we're already well down exactly that road to exactly that destination.
        dTal 5y ago
        Why on earth would it? The government is the engine of social cooperation. Losing faith in it puts you on the road away from civilization, not towards.
        edmundsauto 5y ago
        If I look at the groups in America who appear to have lost faith in their government, I see a lot of groups - Proud Boys, antivaxxers, antimaskers, anti-CDC people - who could not be remotely categorized as critical thinkers. Their behaviors have caused a longer loss in personal liberty because the pandemic continues. And, to look at the Capitol insurrectionists - there's not much accountability. I just don't think there's much evidence that losing faith in government leads to any of those benefits. And my experience tells me that it does the opposite.
- blitzar 5y ago
  Bill Gates along with Soros the Rothschilds and associated Jews have created a fake global pandemic. The intention is to crash the global economy so they can force everyone into a Socialist, Globalist mono state, flooding our country with immigrants. As part of the fear they have also gotten to finally enact their plan to reduce the world population by sterilizing them with a vaccine that also contains 5g mind-control chips, the receivers of which are the real thing that are making people sick not Covid. Oh and they are going to rape all the children too. You dont think it counts as a conspiracy?
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    I think that's an odious and disgusting way to mischaracterize all concerns as nonsense.
    - blitzar 5y ago
      If your concern is that COVID is fake and it is a jewish conspiracy to inject dangerous vaccines with 5G mind control chips and you want me to take it seriously; then politely go fuck yourself. If you have other concerns, happy to hear them, I never suggested anything to the contrary, you read what you wanted to read in my comment, and perhaps touched a raw nerve as it overlaps with your beliefs.
      - aww_dang 5y ago
        I've observed this frequently on this site and elsewhere. Dissent is pejoratively associated with flat-earth, antisemitism and other nonsense. As a mainstream narrative, it is an effective way to shut down the discussion. Perhaps some might even call that a disinformation conspiracy.
        blitzar 5y ago
        I am not sure which is the cause and effect, brain control 5G chips were the work of Bill Gates (who as far as I know is not of the Jewish faith) and are outlandish enough. As if to 'prove' these claims are possible and indeed real, gravitas is added to the claim by saying it was in conjunction with the Rothschilds and the Soros Foundation. It did not require me to associate an entire religion with the 'theory', it's in the theory itself, as a cornerstone of supposed proof. The conversation gets shut down at the retarded assertion that a fake virus was invented in order to inject the population of the world with a brain control device operating, very specifically, on the 5G spectrum. The phenomenon you are really observing is that stupid people are pejoratively associated with stupid people, especially when they cobble together stupid broad statements like 'all the astronauts and satellites are paid off by the deep state to perpetuate the lie that the earth is round' or 'just ask any Jew and they will confirm they were all told not to go to New York on 9/11'.
ramblerman 5y ago
Why not both? Two things can matter at the same time. If covid did leak from a lab, accidentally, but there was a cover up, that's also worth exploring no? It feels like you are choosing because of political motivations.
- loopz 5y ago
  Both would be best. Swindlers and liars need to be exposed, and held outside of politics. It's not ok to stand in front of hundreds of millions of people and lie right in their faces. We've seen how such mental assaults ended before.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Why does the origin story matter, outside of political motivations? If we knew 100% how it came into being, what specific information does that give us that helps the world eradicate it, or deal with future pandemics? The whole "lab leak investigation" is a political side show attempt to distract people away from the real question, which is how did almost every country on earth utterly fail to control the spread and avert catastrophe? Both questions are fine to answer, but one of them might provide actionable information for future pandemics, and the other one is purely political blame-game.
  - helloworld11 5y ago
    Are you kidding? Of course the origin story of COVID matters, enormously. Knowing where a virus originated and whether it leaked from a lab accident or came to us through a natural cross-over is enormously important for clinical reasons and in the case of this vast global pandemic, for simple historical reasons of firmly establishing what happened and how right down to the first sequence of events. In no way is wanting to find that out a political sideshow if you have any notion of careful research and establishment of facts. People will be writing about the COVID pandemic for decades to come. It's absurd that you or anyone would dismiss something so basic as wanting to concretely know its origin. That sort of reasoning is a much more obvious example of politically motivated sideshow drama.
xupybd 5y ago
So the a conspiracy that causes people to respond poorly to the threat is worse than the conspiracy that released the threat into the world in the first place?

padiyar83 5y ago

I don't think that's a conspiracy. Motivations there, however misplaced they may be, are quite clear.

asplake 5y ago
Groups of people deliberately creating and spreading disinformation is by any sensible definition a conspiracy
- notacoward 5y ago
  Do you also believe that correlation implies causation? Because it's practically the same thing. A conspiracy requires that people conspire, i.e. coordinate. Correlated action is entirely possible without conspiracy, as is evident during any traffic jam or holiday shopping rush.
- luckylion 5y ago
  No, it would be a conspiracy only they conspired to do so. I don't think that's the case with most of them. There are a lot of movements coming from different backgrounds, believing in different things that are meeting at "it's not real, don't get vaccinated". The Bill-Gates-Wants-To-Kill-Us-people aren't conspiring with the Big-Pharma-Wants-A-Perpetual-Vaccine-Business-People, they just happen to come to the same conclusion ("don't do it"). From what little exposure I had to them, I think they're honest in their ideas. I believe they're wrong on most counts, but I don't think they're sitting at home scheming how to fool the masses. I'm sure there are some who seek to influence public opinion by spreading false narratives, but the large majority seems to just have lost pretty much all trust in Western governments and looks for alternative theories that explain the state of the world.
  - dTal 5y ago
    I think you've made a category error. We're not talking about the lost schmucks who've bought into this claptrap - we're talking about whose bright idea it was in the first place, and who's making an effort to spread it. Someone is providing those "alternative theories". You dig around a little and you find dubiously funded websites and media outlets pushing this stuff, as well as the more unsavory elements of media we call "mainstream". It's not nearly as organic as it seems, and we shouldn't let the bad actors hide behind social media as the scapegoat. "Astroturfing" is not new. So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government?
    - aww_dang 5y ago
      >So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government? The public at large if it results in more critical thinking, greater liberty or accountability.
      - notacoward 5y ago
        Expecting such an outcome is starkly irrational. Its exact opposite is far more likely, as evidenced by the fact that we're already well down exactly that road to exactly that destination.
      - dTal 5y ago
        Why on earth would it? The government is the engine of social cooperation. Losing faith in it puts you on the road away from civilization, not towards.
      - edmundsauto 5y ago
        If I look at the groups in America who appear to have lost faith in their government, I see a lot of groups - Proud Boys, antivaxxers, antimaskers, anti-CDC people - who could not be remotely categorized as critical thinkers. Their behaviors have caused a longer loss in personal liberty because the pandemic continues. And, to look at the Capitol insurrectionists - there's not much accountability. I just don't think there's much evidence that losing faith in government leads to any of those benefits. And my experience tells me that it does the opposite.
blitzar 5y ago
Bill Gates along with Soros the Rothschilds and associated Jews have created a fake global pandemic. The intention is to crash the global economy so they can force everyone into a Socialist, Globalist mono state, flooding our country with immigrants. As part of the fear they have also gotten to finally enact their plan to reduce the world population by sterilizing them with a vaccine that also contains 5g mind-control chips, the receivers of which are the real thing that are making people sick not Covid. Oh and they are going to rape all the children too. You dont think it counts as a conspiracy?
- aww_dang 5y ago
  I think that's an odious and disgusting way to mischaracterize all concerns as nonsense.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    If your concern is that COVID is fake and it is a jewish conspiracy to inject dangerous vaccines with 5G mind control chips and you want me to take it seriously; then politely go fuck yourself. If you have other concerns, happy to hear them, I never suggested anything to the contrary, you read what you wanted to read in my comment, and perhaps touched a raw nerve as it overlaps with your beliefs.
    - aww_dang 5y ago
      I've observed this frequently on this site and elsewhere. Dissent is pejoratively associated with flat-earth, antisemitism and other nonsense. As a mainstream narrative, it is an effective way to shut down the discussion. Perhaps some might even call that a disinformation conspiracy.
      - blitzar 5y ago
        I am not sure which is the cause and effect, brain control 5G chips were the work of Bill Gates (who as far as I know is not of the Jewish faith) and are outlandish enough. As if to 'prove' these claims are possible and indeed real, gravitas is added to the claim by saying it was in conjunction with the Rothschilds and the Soros Foundation. It did not require me to associate an entire religion with the 'theory', it's in the theory itself, as a cornerstone of supposed proof. The conversation gets shut down at the retarded assertion that a fake virus was invented in order to inject the population of the world with a brain control device operating, very specifically, on the 5G spectrum. The phenomenon you are really observing is that stupid people are pejoratively associated with stupid people, especially when they cobble together stupid broad statements like 'all the astronauts and satellites are paid off by the deep state to perpetuate the lie that the earth is round' or 'just ask any Jew and they will confirm they were all told not to go to New York on 9/11'.

ramblerman 5y ago

Why not both? Two things can matter at the same time. If covid did leak from a lab, accidentally, but there was a cover up, that's also worth exploring no? It feels like you are choosing because of political motivations.

loopz 5y ago
Both would be best. Swindlers and liars need to be exposed, and held outside of politics. It's not ok to stand in front of hundreds of millions of people and lie right in their faces. We've seen how such mental assaults ended before.
ryandrake 5y ago
Why does the origin story matter, outside of political motivations? If we knew 100% how it came into being, what specific information does that give us that helps the world eradicate it, or deal with future pandemics? The whole "lab leak investigation" is a political side show attempt to distract people away from the real question, which is how did almost every country on earth utterly fail to control the spread and avert catastrophe? Both questions are fine to answer, but one of them might provide actionable information for future pandemics, and the other one is purely political blame-game.
- helloworld11 5y ago
  Are you kidding? Of course the origin story of COVID matters, enormously. Knowing where a virus originated and whether it leaked from a lab accident or came to us through a natural cross-over is enormously important for clinical reasons and in the case of this vast global pandemic, for simple historical reasons of firmly establishing what happened and how right down to the first sequence of events. In no way is wanting to find that out a political sideshow if you have any notion of careful research and establishment of facts. People will be writing about the COVID pandemic for decades to come. It's absurd that you or anyone would dismiss something so basic as wanting to concretely know its origin. That sort of reasoning is a much more obvious example of politically motivated sideshow drama.

xupybd 5y ago

So the a conspiracy that causes people to respond poorly to the threat is worse than the conspiracy that released the threat into the world in the first place?