6 ms·

I am curious if this question has come up in company marketing discussions. One of the most common and off-putting things about the weight-loss industry is the

by issa 5y ago

I am curious if this question has come up in company marketing discussions. One of the most common and off-putting things about the weight-loss industry is the vague medicine promise. Have you considered just saying "semaglutide" instead of "a breakthrough medication"? I honestly almost stopped reading because it comes off as so huckster-ish to me.

rich-cartwright 5y ago
I think a lot about our framing and I know for sure we haven't nailed it yet. It's fair to say your avg HN reader is very different to your avg American. For example, you seem already somewhat clued up about Semaglutide. You're likely interested in the biology behind it, and probably aren't afraid to parse the journal article about it. I really wanna emphasize how different this is to your avg American. So it's more my bad for not tailoring our language enough for a HN post.
- lkrubner 5y ago
  I assume you've heard the advice that small startups should start in a niche and then expand towards the wider markets? Have you thought about initially focusing on Hacker News types, the types who read up on the technical documentation behind a drug? You've probably heard the story about Head & Shoulders shampoo? This is taught in a lot of marketing classes. The year it launched there were other shampoos launching that also included selenium disulfide and piroctone olamine and therefore could have sold themselves as anti-dandruff shampoo, but the other shampoos instead went after the general market and they almost all failed. Head & Shoulders started with a niche and eventually became a giant: "By 1982, it was the "number one brand" of shampoo, and it was noted that "No one hair care brand gets so many ad dollars as Head & Shoulders, a twenty year old brand, and no other brand matches its sales", despite it being a "medicated" shampoo." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_%26_Shoulders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_%26_Shoulders
  - rich-cartwright 5y ago
    Hadn't heard about H&S. Will give it more of a think about best early adopters.
    - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
      As someone who knows nothing about Semaglutide and is an HN type, I can tell you that anecdotally, marketing yourself as a breakthrough medicinal weight loss solution sounds very similar to packaging found on gas station counters. Ephedrine was also a breakthrough weight loss treatment...until it wasn't...
      - rich-cartwright 5y ago
        Helpful to know. Thank you.
- noduerme 5y ago
  Consider hacker mentality. You have a complex system that's not functioning the way it should. Do you drill to the root problem or just patch it temporarily? Weight gain is a problem, and the possible environmental contaminants and other causes behind society-wide weight gain are of interest as a big problem to solve. Workaround hacks like producing more insulin don't drill into the root cause. My first impulse (and probably that of most people here) is to identify what is being sold and then read what's known about the biological pathways it leverages. Not that we wouldn't all mind being fitter. But some argument needs to be made that altering basic cellular biochemistry for up-to 15% weigh loss has a risk/reward profile better than seeking root causes and addressing those, which any coder worth their salt would try to do first.
  - rich-cartwright 5y ago
    Noted. For reference, I've very much tried to design Fella to tackle all the root causes of obesity, which vary person to person: metabolic condition, stress, sleep, exercise, food types & volume, and hormone imbalances.
    - noduerme 5y ago
      Beyond personal causes like metabolism or diet, there've been some fascinating discussions here in the past few months about why technologically advanced societies seem to have an exponential obesity problem starting around 1980, relative to other cultures that exercise less and take in more calories. I can't find the thread. But it definitely bears consideration. I think the view would be that hacking your way partially out of a problem isn't necessarily bad, but we've seen decades of data used to incorrectly imply one chain of causality or another and there's a larger problem to solve than a drug or a tummy tuck can tackle.
      - rich-cartwright 5y ago
        Yep more research being done on the hormone imbalance side. Nascent area though.
      - 5y ago
- notjulianjaynes 5y ago
  If your cagey about whats in your pill my gut reaction is it either doesnt work or youre overcharging for it. I am average American.
  - rich-cartwright 5y ago
    Not at all trying to be cagey, and also not our pill. The main paper is here for more info about the most notable medication: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183 Important to say this definitely isn't the only medication the doctor will prescribe. That's a decision to make in conjunction with the patient after a full medical history.
- smsm42 5y ago
  I've never heard the word "Semaglutide" before this moment in my life. However, to me naming the thing sounds like "people that did at least some of the homework, and I could probably look it up and see if it's interesting to me", and calling it anonymous "breakthrough medication" sounds like yet another scam that tries to suppress my rational brain and get money out of me before I had time to think if it's worth it. It literally does nothing to inform me or to make me think I may be interested - everybody who can hire a copywriter has "breakthrough something", and I certainly don't have time to pay attention to dig up real information on all of them. I understand that the hustle is a part of the marketing. But medicine is not the area where you should lean on it. At least not on it alone. If you don't give me full and verifiable information about what you have, I won't be interested. Too many scams around and too high risk, especially with the new and yet unproven stuff.
  - rich-cartwright 5y ago
    Understood. I thought the easiest way to do this would be to link to the articles which talk about this in more detail. Should probably have added a small paragraph which talked about the bio of it.
- issa 5y ago
  Just to clarify my initial comment... I am actually not particularly interested in the biological pathways, etc. My reaction was 100% because it sounds like the sketchy language of every single other weight loss "breakthrough" that has been touted in my lifetime. If you watch any youtube fitness guru videos (which I do not recommend!) you will see that it is a standard trope: "All you have to do is eat this one amazing super food" and they never tell you what it is. I think you are trying to offer a legitimate service, so please don't sound like those people.
  - rich-cartwright 5y ago
    Makes a ton of sense, and really helpful to know. Thank you.
midjji 5y ago
Or medicines which have really long and strong evidence for weight loss effects like amphetamines?
- User23 5y ago
  Or testosterone, which isn’t necessarily great for weight loss, but is fabulous for body composition, which I’m sure many men would be satisfied with. Weighing 200 with 18% body fat is probably more attractive to many tall men than weighing 160 with the same body fat. Muscle also raises basal metabolic rate which is nice for fat loss. TRT clinics are grossly overpriced, charging $300+ A month for $5 drugs, so there is almost certainly room to disrupt that market. I’d be willing to wager many obese men display hypogonadism too.
  - rich-cartwright 5y ago
    We're starting to do more research into hormone-based treatments. We definitely have hesitancy as hormone treatments are a bigger life decision, and telehealth regulation is murky. We'll look into it more.
  - eurasiantiger 5y ago
    And then there’s the fact that obesity is not an individual fault, it is caused by hormone disruptor chemicals in our environment and diet. Of course, higher consumption of more processed foods tends to increase obesity for this very reason: it increases the intake of hormone disruptors.
    - rich-cartwright 5y ago
      Definitely an area with compelling evidence. Lot of uncertainty though.
- rich-cartwright 5y ago
  The doctors prescribe both GLP-1s & meds like Phentermine, among others. I just didn't wanna list them all out!
bradknowles 5y ago
And this medication is already approved by the FDA for those of us who are diabetic. At higher doses, even. They’re just taking the same medication and using it at lower doses for weight loss instead of diabetes control. And frankly, as a fat diabetic, I strongly suspect it’s doing the exact same thing in both cases, and the reason it works for diabetics is that it helps them lose weight. It’s definitely on my list to discuss with my endocrinologist.
- rich-cartwright 5y ago
  Good to hear you'll be talking about it your endocrinologist. Couple things: Injectable Semaglutide was first FDA approved in 2017 as Ozempic. Wegovy is also injectable Semaglutide. The key difference is the approved dose: Ozempic is 1.0mg, Wegovy is 2.4mg. The FDA approval is also very important for future insurance remibursement. Semaglutide is a GLP-1 RA. These medications stimulate a receptor in your body which results in three main effects: 1 - Slowing down gastric emptying so food stays in your stomach for longer (this is thought to be why there is sometimes nausea when starting the medication) 2 - Making you feel full by working on your central nervous system 3 - Managing glucose control (which is why it's used for people with diabetes too) [1] gives you a great summary of the field up to now and how it works. [1] https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/15/glp-1-and-obesity https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/15/gl...

by issa 5y ago

rich-cartwright 5y ago

I think a lot about our framing and I know for sure we haven't nailed it yet. It's fair to say your avg HN reader is very different to your avg American. For example, you seem already somewhat clued up about Semaglutide. You're likely interested in the biology behind it, and probably aren't afraid to parse the journal article about it. I really wanna emphasize how different this is to your avg American. So it's more my bad for not tailoring our language enough for a HN post.

lkrubner 5y ago
I assume you've heard the advice that small startups should start in a niche and then expand towards the wider markets? Have you thought about initially focusing on Hacker News types, the types who read up on the technical documentation behind a drug? You've probably heard the story about Head & Shoulders shampoo? This is taught in a lot of marketing classes. The year it launched there were other shampoos launching that also included selenium disulfide and piroctone olamine and therefore could have sold themselves as anti-dandruff shampoo, but the other shampoos instead went after the general market and they almost all failed. Head & Shoulders started with a niche and eventually became a giant: "By 1982, it was the "number one brand" of shampoo, and it was noted that "No one hair care brand gets so many ad dollars as Head & Shoulders, a twenty year old brand, and no other brand matches its sales", despite it being a "medicated" shampoo." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_%26_Shoulders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_%26_Shoulders
- rich-cartwright 5y ago
  Hadn't heard about H&S. Will give it more of a think about best early adopters.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    As someone who knows nothing about Semaglutide and is an HN type, I can tell you that anecdotally, marketing yourself as a breakthrough medicinal weight loss solution sounds very similar to packaging found on gas station counters. Ephedrine was also a breakthrough weight loss treatment...until it wasn't...
    - rich-cartwright 5y ago
      Helpful to know. Thank you.
noduerme 5y ago
Consider hacker mentality. You have a complex system that's not functioning the way it should. Do you drill to the root problem or just patch it temporarily? Weight gain is a problem, and the possible environmental contaminants and other causes behind society-wide weight gain are of interest as a big problem to solve. Workaround hacks like producing more insulin don't drill into the root cause. My first impulse (and probably that of most people here) is to identify what is being sold and then read what's known about the biological pathways it leverages. Not that we wouldn't all mind being fitter. But some argument needs to be made that altering basic cellular biochemistry for up-to 15% weigh loss has a risk/reward profile better than seeking root causes and addressing those, which any coder worth their salt would try to do first.
- rich-cartwright 5y ago
  Noted. For reference, I've very much tried to design Fella to tackle all the root causes of obesity, which vary person to person: metabolic condition, stress, sleep, exercise, food types & volume, and hormone imbalances.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    Beyond personal causes like metabolism or diet, there've been some fascinating discussions here in the past few months about why technologically advanced societies seem to have an exponential obesity problem starting around 1980, relative to other cultures that exercise less and take in more calories. I can't find the thread. But it definitely bears consideration. I think the view would be that hacking your way partially out of a problem isn't necessarily bad, but we've seen decades of data used to incorrectly imply one chain of causality or another and there's a larger problem to solve than a drug or a tummy tuck can tackle.
    - rich-cartwright 5y ago
      Yep more research being done on the hormone imbalance side. Nascent area though.
    - 5y ago
notjulianjaynes 5y ago
If your cagey about whats in your pill my gut reaction is it either doesnt work or youre overcharging for it. I am average American.
- rich-cartwright 5y ago
  Not at all trying to be cagey, and also not our pill. The main paper is here for more info about the most notable medication: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183 Important to say this definitely isn't the only medication the doctor will prescribe. That's a decision to make in conjunction with the patient after a full medical history.
smsm42 5y ago
I've never heard the word "Semaglutide" before this moment in my life. However, to me naming the thing sounds like "people that did at least some of the homework, and I could probably look it up and see if it's interesting to me", and calling it anonymous "breakthrough medication" sounds like yet another scam that tries to suppress my rational brain and get money out of me before I had time to think if it's worth it. It literally does nothing to inform me or to make me think I may be interested - everybody who can hire a copywriter has "breakthrough something", and I certainly don't have time to pay attention to dig up real information on all of them. I understand that the hustle is a part of the marketing. But medicine is not the area where you should lean on it. At least not on it alone. If you don't give me full and verifiable information about what you have, I won't be interested. Too many scams around and too high risk, especially with the new and yet unproven stuff.
- rich-cartwright 5y ago
  Understood. I thought the easiest way to do this would be to link to the articles which talk about this in more detail. Should probably have added a small paragraph which talked about the bio of it.
issa 5y ago
Just to clarify my initial comment... I am actually not particularly interested in the biological pathways, etc. My reaction was 100% because it sounds like the sketchy language of every single other weight loss "breakthrough" that has been touted in my lifetime. If you watch any youtube fitness guru videos (which I do not recommend!) you will see that it is a standard trope: "All you have to do is eat this one amazing super food" and they never tell you what it is. I think you are trying to offer a legitimate service, so please don't sound like those people.
- rich-cartwright 5y ago
  Makes a ton of sense, and really helpful to know. Thank you.

midjji 5y ago

Or medicines which have really long and strong evidence for weight loss effects like amphetamines?

User23 5y ago
Or testosterone, which isn’t necessarily great for weight loss, but is fabulous for body composition, which I’m sure many men would be satisfied with. Weighing 200 with 18% body fat is probably more attractive to many tall men than weighing 160 with the same body fat. Muscle also raises basal metabolic rate which is nice for fat loss. TRT clinics are grossly overpriced, charging $300+ A month for $5 drugs, so there is almost certainly room to disrupt that market. I’d be willing to wager many obese men display hypogonadism too.
- rich-cartwright 5y ago
  We're starting to do more research into hormone-based treatments. We definitely have hesitancy as hormone treatments are a bigger life decision, and telehealth regulation is murky. We'll look into it more.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  And then there’s the fact that obesity is not an individual fault, it is caused by hormone disruptor chemicals in our environment and diet. Of course, higher consumption of more processed foods tends to increase obesity for this very reason: it increases the intake of hormone disruptors.
  - rich-cartwright 5y ago
    Definitely an area with compelling evidence. Lot of uncertainty though.
rich-cartwright 5y ago
The doctors prescribe both GLP-1s & meds like Phentermine, among others. I just didn't wanna list them all out!

bradknowles 5y ago

And this medication is already approved by the FDA for those of us who are diabetic. At higher doses, even. They’re just taking the same medication and using it at lower doses for weight loss instead of diabetes control. And frankly, as a fat diabetic, I strongly suspect it’s doing the exact same thing in both cases, and the reason it works for diabetics is that it helps them lose weight. It’s definitely on my list to discuss with my endocrinologist.

rich-cartwright 5y ago
Good to hear you'll be talking about it your endocrinologist. Couple things: Injectable Semaglutide was first FDA approved in 2017 as Ozempic. Wegovy is also injectable Semaglutide. The key difference is the approved dose: Ozempic is 1.0mg, Wegovy is 2.4mg. The FDA approval is also very important for future insurance remibursement. Semaglutide is a GLP-1 RA. These medications stimulate a receptor in your body which results in three main effects: 1 - Slowing down gastric emptying so food stays in your stomach for longer (this is thought to be why there is sometimes nausea when starting the medication) 2 - Making you feel full by working on your central nervous system 3 - Managing glucose control (which is why it's used for people with diabetes too) [1] gives you a great summary of the field up to now and how it works. [1] https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/15/glp-1-and-obesity https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/15/gl...